Death Wobble Poll

[XX4XEXX]

Just saying lol.

Poll is older than Covid... it was thrown out the window a long time ago.

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[Remorseless]

What sold me on the idea was a realization when centering the steeringwheel: If an eighth turn of the drag link adjuster can make such a difference in direction, even the slightest deflection of the track bar mount would cause steering direction change. Combine that with an oscillating load (deathwobble), and it would only deflect more. Minimize the deflection, and it should minimize steering direction change.

With 1/8" toe out you shouldn't get much, if any, steering change on track bar deflection. The Jeep may wander with trackbar deflection, since the axle's moving a tiny bit, but I wouldn't expect input to make its way into the steering linkages if toe is set properly (1/8 toe in - 1/8 toe out, def recommend toe out instead of in if you're worried about DW).

 

[AnnDee4444]

With 1/8" toe out you shouldn't get much, if any, steering change on track bar deflection. The Jeep may wander with trackbar deflection, since the axle's moving a tiny bit, but I wouldn't expect input to make its way into the steering linkages if toe is set properly (1/8 toe in - 1/8 toe out, def recommend toe out instead of in if you're worried about DW).

Regardless of toe, steering angle is defined by the relative position of the drag link vs. the track bar. If one moves in relation to the other, the steering direction will change. A deflecting mount will cause uncontrolled track bar movement, which will result in some uncontrolled steering angle. When this springs back & forth... deathwobble is achieved.

 

[Roky]

When this springs back & forth... deathwobble is achieved.

……….and “shit” is released into your shorts…

 

[Remorseless]

Regardless of toe, steering angle is defined by the relative position of the drag link vs. the track bar. If one moves in relation to the other, the steering direction will change. A deflecting mount will cause uncontrolled track bar movement, which will result in some uncontrolled steering angle. When this springs back & forth... deathwobble is achieved.

I think we're using different terms here. I interpreted your "steering direction" as steering angle, with the below being how I have commonly heard steering angle defined:

Toe does play a part in how bump steer and trackbar reaction impacts the above when it comes to death wobble - very slightly toe out does reduce the "twitchiness" of the steering system by changing how much input is required to change the steering angle, using the above definition, which reduces the tendency to get to a point where oscillation occurs, maintaining more stable steering behavior. JL spec is 1/8" out to 1/8" in. Slightly toe out (1/16-1/8") reduces the odds of going too far toe in during compression or rebound, which going too far toe in also contributes to death wobble, especially on high travel suspensions and bigger tires (usually it's suspension rebound that allows toe in some as weight comes off the tires and they come in very slightly, and this causes extra "twitchy" steering reaction while rebounding, which oscillates more easily). Toe slightly out + stronger/stiffer ball joints + good track bar angle + appropriate caster + good bushing health keeps everything nice and stable and the steering system doesn't react as violently.

To your point though (not sure what term I'd call it, steering plane for when trackbar and drag link are moving at undesirable angles/speeds relative to one another?), yes, 100% uncontrolled trackbar movement is bad regardless of toe. Toe, in conjunction with other things, can mask slight trackbar deflection, but it's still something to eliminate, as heavy deflection will overpower a number of those things commonly used to mitigate DW.

 

[Rodeoflyer]

I this discussion now.

 

[AnnDee4444]

I think we're using different terms here. I interpreted your "steering direction" as steering angle, with the below being how I have commonly heard steering angle defined:

Toe does play a part in how bump steer and trackbar reaction impacts the above when it comes to death wobble - very slightly toe out does reduce the "twitchiness" of the steering system by changing how much input is required to change the steering angle, using the above definition, which reduces the tendency to get to a point where oscillation occurs, maintaining more stable steering behavior. JL spec is 1/8" out to 1/8" in. Slightly toe out (1/16-1/8") reduces the odds of going too far toe in during compression or rebound, which going too far toe in also contributes to death wobble, especially on high travel suspensions and bigger tires (usually it's suspension rebound that allows toe in some as weight comes off the tires and they come in very slightly, and this causes extra "twitchy" steering reaction while rebounding, which oscillates more easily). Toe slightly out + stronger/stiffer ball joints + good track bar angle + appropriate caster + good bushing health keeps everything nice and stable and the steering system doesn't react as violently.

To your point though (not sure what term I'd call it, steering plane for when trackbar and drag link are moving at undesirable angles/speeds relative to one another?), yes, 100% uncontrolled trackbar movement is bad regardless of toe. Toe, in conjunction with other things, can mask slight trackbar deflection, but it's still something to eliminate, as heavy deflection will overpower a number of those things commonly used to mitigate DW.

Fair enough: steering angle is probably the more accurate term.

I'm not sure I like the idea of using toe to tune out deathwobble though. You're only masking the problem... just like changing caster, tire pressure, stabilizer, etc... you might happen to find some combination that doesn't oscillate but that could be a long and expensive path of trial & error.

 

[Remorseless]

Fair enough: steering angle is probably the more accurate term.

I'm not sure I like the idea of using toe to tune out deathwobble though. You're only masking the problem... just like changing caster, tire pressure, stabilizer, etc... you might happen to find some combination that doesn't oscillate but that could be a long and expensive path of trial & error.

In my experience it's never just one thing that gets rid of death wobble, so I'm definitely not recommending toe as a singular fix, just saying that it is a component that shouldn't be left out particularly when talking about steering angle reaction to bumps.

It's usually a whole series of adjustments across the whole front end that makes a difference if you're having honest-to-God DW (IMO, there's a lot of folks who have never experienced an XJ, WJ, or TJ with a clapped out steering system to know what true DW feels like - it ain't a bad shimmy), which usually follows a general path for the average Jeep. Caster, toe, ball joints, track bar bushings, track bar brackets, steering stabilizer, steering linkage rod ends, drop pitman arm/drag link flip, etc are all items along that path, not necessarily in that order. Sometimes only or two of these things need adjusted/implemented, sometimes all of them.

For stock Jeeps, ball joints/caster/toe are usually my go-to starting items. For lifted Jeeps, ball joints/track bar bracket and bushing check/caster/toe. Ball joints first only because the stock units are really, truly awful and wear out so easily, usually.

 

[AnnDee4444]

I should probably re-state that everything I mentioned in the posts above along with the initial poll is assuming stock good condition parts properly installed.

In my opinion worn-out parts isn't a design flaw like the weak track bar bracket is. Deathwobble or even lesser self correcting wobbles can cause parts to wear faster than if they were operating under normal non-wobble conditions. For example an out-of-balance wheel could wear out shocks & bushings.

 

[LuvHydro]

19K on the odometer of my totally stock, non off-roaded 2022 JLUSS. Up until Friday, drove perfect.

Friday the temps dropped to the 30s. Hit a slight bump coming off a bridge and about shit my pants, my first experience with what I assume is death wobble. Lasted maybe 1-2 seconds?

Today, it's in the high 20s, hit a bump in the road and it did it again, ever so briefly. WTF?

Can't believe anything would be worn out already.

 

[wcjeep]

2dr Sport with factory upgraded wheels and tires. About $400 option. Tires are bigger than base Sport. At 10k miles. No issues.

 

[AEDRUBI]

Experienced the DW and contacted Jeep. Waiting for the dealer appointment, put new tires on, balanced and got an alignment…dealer advised it was internal failure of the steering dampener. New one ordered, but was on back-order.

 

[martoaj]

19K on the odometer of my totally stock, non off-roaded 2022 JLUSS. Up until Friday, drove perfect.

Friday the temps dropped to the 30s. Hit a slight bump coming off a bridge and about shit my pants, my first experience with what I assume is death wobble. Lasted maybe 1-2 seconds?

Today, it's in the high 20s, hit a bump in the road and it did it again, ever so briefly. WTF?

Can't believe anything would be worn out already.

Hate to think it's weather related, but this exact thing just happened on my '22 Sahara. I've been driving with zero issues all spring/summer/fall ... loving this truck and thinking this death wobble talk is nonsense. But driving on the parkway last week, first time this truck has seen anything resembling cold weather (35*F), and I had a pronounced front-end wobble when hitting standard expansion joints at anything over 55 mph.

My tires were reading ~33-34 psi cold, so I brought 'em all up to 38 cold. I feel like it helped reduce the wobbles considerably, but I still had a few sketchy moments driving this weekend again in ~30*F temps on the freeway. Maybe 5% of the bumps I hit led to a wobble. So frustrating, particularly when the truck tracks straight normally and I have no discernible vibration through the seat or steering wheel.

I only have 4200 miles on the truck, too I'm already going into the dealership for recall work next week, hoping they can tack this onto the agenda. It's hard to explain what having that sort of inconsistent wobble does to your confidence while driving. Soon as you lose confidence, it completely changes how you drive. In a very bad way.

 

[Ron93YJ]

I had a slight wobble start around 22k miles on my 21 Rubicon 4xe.

 

[IntrepidXJ]

19K on the odometer of my totally stock, non off-roaded 2022 JLUSS. Up until Friday, drove perfect.

Friday the temps dropped to the 30s. Hit a slight bump coming off a bridge and about shit my pants, my first experience with what I assume is death wobble. Lasted maybe 1-2 seconds?

Today, it's in the high 20s, hit a bump in the road and it did it again, ever so briefly. WTF?

Can't believe anything would be worn out already.

Same on my stock 22 JLUR with just over 19k miles. Just started getting a wobble when hitting small bumps on I-70 today.

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