Death Wobble

[brconflict]

Ok. Sounds like you have no clue how the steering system or any of its components work, so you’re never going to believe us or any of the other jeep owners on here that have had and fixed death wobble. @gek posted info from quadratec, and many of the other suspension companies have similar info available. If all you will accept is the dealer or Chrysler’s answer, then we can’t help you and this is pointless. They’re going to tell you what is the easiest for them to fix at the least cost cause that’s how businesses work.
Have a day guy.

No, I'm not going to say anything that's going to be listened to, either, apparently. And the dealers and Chrysler are apparently the sworn enemy of their loyal customers.

And yes, that's how businesses work. That's exactly how nearly every business works, even those making insane profits, such as Apple.

I'm an engineer, not a 4x4 mechanic. I'll admit that, but I have worked on many vehicles in my life. I do understand a bit about steering components, but not enough to know how to solve such a difficult problem by design. But I'm not here for help. The OP is.

Sponsored

 

[gek]

No, I'm not going to say anything that's going to be listened to, either, apparently. And the dealers and Chrysler are apparently the sworn enemy of their loyal customers.

And yes, that's how businesses work. That's exactly how nearly every business works, even those making insane profits, such as Apple.

I'm an engineer, not a 4x4 mechanic. I'll admit that, but I have worked on many vehicles in my life. I do understand a bit about steering components, but not enough to know how to solve such a difficult problem by design. But I'm not here for help. The OP is.

Just read it

https://www.quadratec.com/c/blog/wh...-wobble-how-to-fix&gad_campaignid=22839734875

 

[brconflict]

The stabilizer is literally a shock, how can it cause death wobble.

We have told you many times it is a mask for the real issue and explained it.

To quote myself

Yes, I read your post. I'm aware of what triggers DW. I've experienced that phenomena, myself. But I've not said the stabilizer is the root cause. I don't believe I ever said the stabilizer caused DW. I just said one made DW worse (infer that it didn't do much to stop it). I've said I believe the main reason we experience this is due to the Straight axle and its flaws.

However, I've been trying to point out that even as a work-around, if it stops the problem from happening, it must be helpful, and maybe the only way to battle this problem consistently long term (aside from replacing failing or worn-out parts, obviously). If a 4x4 shop sells you a mighty steering kit, then maybe that helps futher, but will it forever eliminate DW? Probably.

And shocks are a reasonable solution to many problems, including the solution to the inherent flaws of coil and leaf springs. Nobody seems to take issue with that. It helps.

While this steering stabilizer might not be the correct solution to DW on the Wrangler, if it's an aid, it might be the only one easily swapped out and perhaps strong enough to soften the problem until one day it can be solved forever. I have no issue with that if there is no other fix available. My Wrangler had DW at less than 10k miles. That's probably not from wear and tear, especially for one never off-road and driven nicely.

Some are suggesting we should proverbially barge into dealerships and demand they fix DW because a stabilizer isn't the "right" solution. And as I said before, high-speed motorcycles also use steering stabilizers, because they can experience DW and flip as well. A very good friend of mine raced professionally and now owns his own bike shop. I knew what that dampener was for in the 1980s. But nobody ever said it was a design flaw of the bike. It's just the demands put on that design.

Now, again, if the stabilizer fixed my issues for now and assuming I keep my front-end in check and ensure it's in proper working order, you should have no reason to believe I'm not listening to the input here in this thread. But if I go the rest of my Wrangler's life without a single DW again, I could at least reasonably accept that perhaps the old stabilizer was probably not a good part, and should have been replaced.

So, again, I've said nothing about the stabilizer being the root cause. I just know it is a fix provided to me, and if I no longer experience DW (now at 36k miles), then the dealer and Jeep as a business did help. Was that a solution? Maybe not. But I don't see the point in not at least replacing that $50 part if it's recommended by a mechanic and demonstrated to have possibly helped.

 

[gek]

Yes, I read your post. I'm aware of what triggers DW. I've experienced that phenomena, myself. But I've not said the stabilizer is the root cause. I don't believe I ever said the stabilizer caused DW. I just said one made DW worse (infer that it didn't do much to stop it). I've said I believe the main reason we experience this is due to the Straight axle and its flaws.

However, I've been trying to point out that even as a work-around, if it stops the problem from happening, it must be helpful, and maybe the only way to battle this problem consistently long term (aside from replacing failing or worn-out parts, obviously). If a 4x4 shop sells you a mighty steering kit, then maybe that helps futher, but will it forever eliminate DW? Probably.

And shocks are a reasonable solution to many problems, including the solution to the inherent flaws of coil and leaf springs. Nobody seems to take issue with that. It helps.

While this steering stabilizer might not be the correct solution to DW on the Wrangler, if it's an aid, it might be the only one easily swapped out and perhaps strong enough to soften the problem until one day it can be solved forever. I have no issue with that if there is no other fix available. My Wrangler had DW at less than 10k miles. That's probably not from wear and tear, especially for one never off-road and driven nicely.

Some are suggesting we should proverbially barge into dealerships and demand they fix DW because a stabilizer isn't the "right" solution. And as I said before, high-speed motorcycles also use steering stabilizers, because they can experience DW and flip as well. A very good friend of mine raced professionally and now owns his own bike shop. I knew what that dampener was for in the 1980s. But nobody ever said it was a design flaw of the bike. It's just the demands put on that design.

Now, again, if the stabilizer fixed my issues for now and assuming I keep my front-end in check and ensure it's in proper working order, you should have no reason to believe I'm not listening to the input here in this thread. But if I go the rest of my Wrangler's life without a single DW again, I could at least reasonably accept that perhaps the old stabilizer was probably not a good part, and should have been replaced.

So, again, I've said nothing about the stabilizer being the root cause. I just know it is a fix provided to me, and if I no longer experience DW (now at 36k miles), then the dealer and Jeep as a business did help. Was that a solution? Maybe not. But I don't see the point in not at least replacing that $50 part if it's recommended by a mechanic and demonstrated to have possibly helped.

Literally from the quadratec blog:

"In fact, a steering stabilizer can only make things more difficult to resolve and may even cause more problems down the road."

https://www.quadratec.com/c/blog/what-is-jeep-death-wobble

of course we experience it because of the solid axle, it is one of the inherent flaws of the solid axle for the past 100 years, but we bought wranglers for the benefits of the solid axle.

Your early DW could have been due to improperly torqued bolts, I 99.9% guarantee that they checked them when they changed your stabilizer. If that was the case then they fixed the issue causing DW and replaced your worn out stabilizer.

 

[Terrymo]

 

[brconflict]

Just read it

https://www.quadratec.com/c/blog/wh...-wobble-how-to-fix&gad_campaignid=22839734875

Read it before, thanks! I've read many articles on the subject and watched hours of YT videos. I understand what everyone is saying here.

I do like that the article says flat out to ignore anyone who suggests throwing a new stabilizer on the vehicle. So, perhaps since an article written by Quadratec is proof that a stabilizer is forever a pointless fix. Stellantis design engineers are probably mis-informed, or we're all fools if we believe anything they ever suggest. Like I said elsewhere, I'm waiting for the chance to take mine back, but I honestly haven't experienced DW again, and I've tried to make it re-occur in ideal situations. It does tamp down the wobble and stop it. I just don't believe that's the final fix.

I also mentioned inflating tires properly. They recommended that in this article as well as alignments.

To be fair, I would welcome a Jeep design engineer's input here.

 

[brconflict]

Literally from the quadratec blog:

"In fact, a steering stabilizer can only make things more difficult to resolve and may even cause more problems down the road."

https://www.quadratec.com/c/blog/what-is-jeep-death-wobble

of course we experience it because of the solid axle, it is one of the inherent flaws of the solid axle for the past 100 years, but we bought wranglers for the benefits of the solid axle.

Your early DW could have been due to improperly torqued bolts, I 99.9% guarantee that they checked them when they changed your stabilizer. If that was the case then they fixed the issue causing DW and replaced your worn out stabilizer.

Thank you, I agree. Maybe they did correct some other issue, but I never saw any marking or any dust disturbed aside from the stabilizer. Still, they very well could have adjusted something quick and not told me.

 

[gek]

Thank you, I agree. Maybe they did correct some other issue, but I never saw any marking or any dust disturbed aside from the stabilizer. Still, they very well could have adjusted something quick and not told me.

It would not be in their best interest to tell people their brand new vehicle came from the factory with steering and suspension torqued improperly. Much easier to say "bad part we'll replace it" and most people won't know any better.

 

[shagles]

Yes, I read your post. I'm aware of what triggers DW. I've experienced that phenomena, myself. But I've not said the stabilizer is the root cause. I don't believe I ever said the stabilizer caused DW. I just said one made DW worse (infer that it didn't do much to stop it). I've said I believe the main reason we experience this is due to the Straight axle and its flaws.

However, I've been trying to point out that even as a work-around, if it stops the problem from happening, it must be helpful, and maybe the only way to battle this problem consistently long term (aside from replacing failing or worn-out parts, obviously). If a 4x4 shop sells you a mighty steering kit, then maybe that helps futher, but will it forever eliminate DW? Probably.

And shocks are a reasonable solution to many problems, including the solution to the inherent flaws of coil and leaf springs. Nobody seems to take issue with that. It helps.

While this steering stabilizer might not be the correct solution to DW on the Wrangler, if it's an aid, it might be the only one easily swapped out and perhaps strong enough to soften the problem until one day it can be solved forever. I have no issue with that if there is no other fix available. My Wrangler had DW at less than 10k miles. That's probably not from wear and tear, especially for one never off-road and driven nicely.

Some are suggesting we should proverbially barge into dealerships and demand they fix DW because a stabilizer isn't the "right" solution. And as I said before, high-speed motorcycles also use steering stabilizers, because they can experience DW and flip as well. A very good friend of mine raced professionally and now owns his own bike shop. I knew what that dampener was for in the 1980s. But nobody ever said it was a design flaw of the bike. It's just the demands put on that design.

Now, again, if the stabilizer fixed my issues for now and assuming I keep my front-end in check and ensure it's in proper working order, you should have no reason to believe I'm not listening to the input here in this thread. But if I go the rest of my Wrangler's life without a single DW again, I could at least reasonably accept that perhaps the old stabilizer was probably not a good part, and should have been replaced.

So, again, I've said nothing about the stabilizer being the root cause. I just know it is a fix provided to me, and if I no longer experience DW (now at 36k miles), then the dealer and Jeep as a business did help. Was that a solution? Maybe not. But I don't see the point in not at least replacing that $50 part if it's recommended by a mechanic and demonstrated to have possibly helped.

We’re not saying don’t replace the stabilizer. We’re saying don’t stop there.
Even at only 10k it very likely is a worn out part. In fact, i would bet a not insignificant amount of money that some of your ball joints are bad. The factory ball joint design is extremely poor for consistency and durability in a part with a huge amount of load on it, that is also constantly moving. The ball has a plastic cap over it that then goes into the cup. There’s no way to grease them and the plastic caps are really thin, so they wear out and break. Often times extremely early. I’ve seen 3 different jeeps that i can think of off the top of my head with ball joints that went bad under 12k in stock form, no off-roading. You’re an engineer, (not sure what kind, I’m an ME) so look at this design with your engineering hat on.

 

[gek]

We’re not saying don’t replace the stabilizer. We’re saying don’t stop there.
Even at only 10k it very likely is a worn out part. In fact, i would bet a not insignificant amount of money that some of your ball joints are bad. The factory ball joint design is extremely poor for consistency and durability in a part with a huge amount of load on it, that is also constantly moving. The ball has a plastic cap over it that then goes into the cup. There’s no way to grease them and the plastic caps are really thin, so they wear out and break. Often times extremely early. I’ve seen 3 different jeeps that i can think of off the top of my head with ball joints that went bad under 12k in stock form, no off-roading. You’re an engineer, (not sure what kind, I’m an ME) so look at this design with your engineering hat on.

Mine got changed at 15k and they were bad, not totally worn out yet, but it would not have been long.

 

[brconflict]

It would not be in their best interest to tell people their brand new vehicle came from the factory with steering and suspension torqued improperly. Much easier to say "bad part we'll replace it" and most people won't know any better.

There's no mystery about that, for sure. But I'd hope they might attempt to correct the factory issue after discovering this. Trust me, I know that isn't easy (I have an old Ford King Ranch story about broken driver windows on every vehicle until they could finally stop the line and re-sequence, which took weeks. A body shop fixed the windows in those.) But you don't want to maintain a cover story too long and not seek a remedy quickly. But this issue has been going on for a very long time, so they're fighting a near endless battle.

Every year sees at least some minor change. Just look at the history of the 3.6. It's improved significantly in quality since the#2 cylinder wall issue. But you couldn't expect them to rip out every 3.6 because it one day runs hotter than normal.Same with this.

Also, if Jeep were to completely remove the stabilizer, would that not worsen the issue or raise the risk of DW? See, I believe it's a lot of things causing this with a root in the straight axle, and only made worse by other faults. I think all of these things should be in working order.

 

[brconflict]

We’re not saying don’t replace the stabilizer. We’re saying don’t stop there.
Even at only 10k it very likely is a worn out part. In fact, i would bet a not insignificant amount of money that some of your ball joints are bad. The factory ball joint design is extremely poor for consistency and durability in a part with a huge amount of load on it, that is also constantly moving. The ball has a plastic cap over it that then goes into the cup. There’s no way to grease them and the plastic caps are really thin, so they wear out and break. Often times extremely early. I’ve seen 3 different jeeps that i can think of off the top of my head with ball joints that went bad under 12k in stock form, no off-roading. You’re an engineer, (not sure what kind, I’m an ME) so look at this design with your engineering hat on.

We’re not saying don’t replace the stabilizer. We’re saying don’t stop there.
Even at only 10k it very likely is a worn out part. In fact, i would bet a not insignificant amount of money that some of your ball joints are bad. The factory ball joint design is extremely poor for consistency and durability in a part with a huge amount of load on it, that is also constantly moving. The ball has a plastic cap over it that then goes into the cup. There’s no way to grease them and the plastic caps are really thin, so they wear out and break. Often times extremely early. I’ve seen 3 different jeeps that i can think of off the top of my head with ball joints that went bad under 12k in stock form, no off-roading. You’re an engineer, (not sure what kind, I’m an ME) so look at this design with your engineering hat on.

Thanks! Yes, I was aware of this type of issue in 2001 from my 2000 Dodge Dakota. Same general issue at 20k miles. They replaced them and I was off. So far (fingers-crossed), maybe my ball joints are fine.

 

[WillysMeow]

But what's the open wound and who created it, exactly?

High-speed motorcycles use stabilizers for the same reason, and they should be replaced occasionally. That's not necessarily because those bikes are flawed. They're just being modded and used for something that's perhaps a little beyond their original design. If Wranglers had independent front suspension that would certainly solve this problem, but at the expense of a straight front axle. This issue has been a problem for quite some time. Sure, there might be some flaws that make it more "likely" to occur, as I alluded, but would you trust a Wrangler with a straight front axle and no stabilizer at all?

Keep in mind, ball joints and other parts on the front end will and do wear out—sometimes prematurely. What I offered is simply how to deal with what's there now with less expense and to better solve the problem. After all, maybe even a band-aid is cheaper than an entire front end replacement.

By all means, if you experience Death Wobble while under warranty, report it. Get it fixed. Just know the manufacturer must take the path of least resistance first.

Drove my Jeep couple days without any stabilizer and it was fine, but everything is still fairly new. Shit wears out, need to replace whatever is worn out, not just the stabilizer.

 

[brconflict]

Drove my Jeep couple days without any stabilizer and it was fine, but everything is still fairly new. Shit wears out, need to replace whatever is worn out, not just the stabilizer.

I'd agree. However, under warranty, the dealer isn't simply going to allow me to corner them and demand they dig deeper into the issue when service bulletins show the stabilizer was a known issue. And I'm not going to complicate the issue by driving over to another shop in the hopes that they'll rip it all apart and find something, only to return to the dealer later with a voided warranty.

As everyone here probably read, you have to tread lightly with warranties or bring a civil suit. Not that I wasn't prepared to go to another 4x4 shop. But they were telling me it could be 2 months before I could get into the dealer.

 

[WillysMeow]

I'd agree. However, under warranty, the dealer isn't simply going to allow me to corner them and demand they dig deeper into the issue when service bulletins show the stabilizer was a known issue. And I'm not going to complicate the issue by driving over to another shop in the hopes that they'll rip it all apart and find something, only to return to the dealer later with a voided warranty.

As everyone here probably read, you have to tread lightly with warranties or bring a civil suit. Not that I wasn't prepared to go to another 4x4 shop. But they were telling me it could be 2 months before I could get into the dealer.

I also owned a 1981 Toyota 4x4 with straight axle, double tcases, lift lockers, etc, removed swaybars, tiny little steering stabilizer that was years old and it never got death wobble...gotta keep the trunion bearings good and proper preload on those. Also ensure that caster is proper for your application.


Then you got three options.

I'd pressure the dealer to do proper warranty, do the work yourself or find a good shop that will do it for you.

Sponsored