Payload vs Upgrades -- a cautionary tale

[jaymz]

Completely incorrect.
The Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) is an engineered number derived from the the axle assembly weight carrying capacity (which is an engineered number), (stock) tire load carrying capacity, and axle spacing i.e. center of the steer axle to center of the drive axle.
The difference between the GVWR and the actual weight of your vehicle is your payload.
In this case vehicle weight plus payload cannot total more than 6,100 lbs.
Where in the vehicle you place that payload is important. I'm sure you noticed the Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) numbers as well denoting each axle can only have a scaled weight of 3,100 lbs.
One could fairly assume that GAWR + GAWR = GVWR, and usually that would be correct except there is the issue of axle spacing. In the case of a Jeep I do not know whether they are too close or too far apart but whichever it is, it costs 100 lbs.
For example, after you put all your add-ons on the vehicle, load up your camping gear, put your wife in the jump seat, and your two dogs in the back seat, you cross a scale and come in at 6,050 lbs. You're thinking "Jackpot ... I'm under weight" until you get axle weighed and find out you are 2,700 lbs on the steer axle and 3,350 lbs on the drive axle. You're getting an axle overweight ticket, plus you have to move 250 lbs off the drive axle, and put it on the steer axle if you want to keep it. Otherwise that 250 lbs has to come off the vehicle.
Furthermore, if the scaled weight on your drive axle at 3,350 lbs causes the load rating of your drive tires to be exceeded, you're going to get a ticket for that too. FWIW; NYS really likes that one.
To be fair, the information I am giving comes from the trucking industry. As a commercial carrier I get to deal with this shit every day as we cross multiple scales day in and day out. In reality it is highly unlikely that DOT or police are going to weigh your Jeep, or any non-commercial vehicle for that matter, unless it appears to be so overloaded that it doesn't even drive properly. If in fact you do get weighed, I would suspect that being overweight is the least of your problems as you have most likely been pulled in/over for myriad of other issues, and overweight tickets are simply icing on the cake.
As for increasing GVWR, yes, absolutely you can. Depending on where your vehicle is registered denotes how difficult or easy it is to accomplish. Here in Ontario you would need to put in heavier axle assemblies, tires with a higher load rating, and brakes that will stop the weight, then have it certified. TBH ... I am uncertain whether a certified mechanic can do this or whether you need an engineer to do it as I haven't done one in over 30 years.

From a legal standpoint regarding total weight of the vehicle - you’re absolutely correct.

However, my perspective was pertaining to how much weight that the vehicle suspension can actually support. Wheels and tires do not factor in to that no matter how much they weigh (unless you exceed the tire’s load rating) as they are not supported by the suspension.

I should have been clear in explaining my position.

Am I suggesting to break the law? No.

Am I suggesting that a couple hundreds pounds over the stated GVWR is likely safe? Yes.

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[Byrds8]

GVWR is stupid low on a lot of vehicles it seems these days. My 2017 ram rebel only leaves like 970lb capacity if I recall correctly. Put 5 large adults in there and it's over weight in a pickup with an empty bed! And the thing is rated to tow 11k lbs so if you're arguing it is brake/engine/cooling system/ or even frame strength limited something doesn't add up. While it still had the air suspension I hauled a 2500lb pallet of bird seed 200 miles up into the mountains with 500+lbs of passengers. Sat level, handled fine, acceleration was good, braking was fine. 80k+ miles later and it clearly didn't damage anything. Now it's got tuf springs that advertise 50% payload increase and I'd have no issue throwing 1500+lbs in it at any time.

Yeah that is what I was thinking. You put 4 big grown men in the jeep and it’s overweight. That is pretty stupid low. I think the payload on my Silverado was like 1700. I think it weighed around 5100 lbs. I would have thought the Jeep would have been higher but oh well. Lol.

 

[jaymz]

Yeah that is what I was thinking. You put 4 big grown men in the jeep and it’s overweight. That is pretty stupid low. I think the payload on my Silverado was like 1700. I think it weighed around 5100 lbs. I would have thought the Jeep would have been higher but oh well. Lol.

I know the towing capacity for the European market is considerably higher. I wonder if GVWR is different as well? I briefly looked but couldn’t find anything.

If it is higher, exceeding the US weight still wouldn’t be legal, but it would definitely be safe.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Completely incorrect.
The Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) is an engineered number derived from the the axle assembly weight carrying capacity (which is an engineered number), (stock) tire load carrying capacity, and axle spacing i.e. center of the steer axle to center of the drive axle.
The difference between the GVWR and the actual weight of your vehicle is your payload.
In this case vehicle weight plus payload cannot total more than 6,100 lbs.
Where in the vehicle you place that payload is important. I'm sure you noticed the Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) numbers as well denoting each axle can only have a scaled weight of 3,100 lbs.
One could fairly assume that GAWR + GAWR = GVWR, and usually that would be correct except there is the issue of axle spacing. In the case of a Jeep I do not know whether they are too close or too far apart but whichever it is, it costs 100 lbs.
For example, after you put all your add-ons on the vehicle, load up your camping gear, put your wife in the jump seat, and your two dogs in the back seat, you cross a scale and come in at 6,050 lbs. You're thinking "Jackpot ... I'm under weight" until you get axle weighed and find out you are 2,700 lbs on the steer axle and 3,350 lbs on the drive axle. You're getting an axle overweight ticket, plus you have to move 250 lbs off the drive axle, and put it on the steer axle if you want to keep it. Otherwise that 250 lbs has to come off the vehicle.
Furthermore, if the scaled weight on your drive axle at 3,350 lbs causes the load rating of your drive tires to be exceeded, you're going to get a ticket for that too. FWIW; NYS really likes that one.
To be fair, the information I am giving comes from the trucking industry. As a commercial carrier I get to deal with this shit every day as we cross multiple scales day in and day out. In reality it is highly unlikely that DOT or police are going to weigh your Jeep, or any non-commercial vehicle for that matter, unless it appears to be so overloaded that it doesn't even drive properly. If in fact you do get weighed, I would suspect that being overweight is the least of your problems as you have most likely been pulled in/over for myriad of other issues, and overweight tickets are simply icing on the cake.
As for increasing GVWR, yes, absolutely you can. Depending on where your vehicle is registered denotes how difficult or easy it is to accomplish. Here in Ontario you would need to put in heavier axle assemblies, tires with a higher load rating, and brakes that will stop the weight, then have it certified. TBH ... I am uncertain whether a certified mechanic can do this or whether you need an engineer to do it as I haven't done one in over 30 years.

You are both correct and incorrect. DOT scales have no jurisdiction over non-commercial loads. If your GCWR is under 26,001lbs, you won't ever be weighed or ticketed here in the US. There are clear exemptions spelled out on fmcsa.dot.gov. Just as you are able to drive your personal vehicle for 18+ hours on road trips, trucking rules don't apply to us even if they would improve safety.

 

[Ratbert]

I know the towing capacity for the European market is considerably higher. I wonder if GVWR is different as well? I briefly looked but couldn’t find anything.

If it is higher, exceeding the US weight still wouldn’t be legal, but it would definitely be safe.

I'll look up the European GVWRs in my database after our vacation.

 

[bjm00se]

Got my Jeep weighed on Dec 15.

2022 Rubicon Unlimited
V6 6 speed manual
Maxxis RAZR 37" tires on Method 703 bead grip wheels.
WFO Long arm kit, Metalcloak 3.5" springs, Fox 2.5" remote res shocks
Metalcloak steering: track bars, drag link, tie rod
RockHard aluminum bumpers
Warn VR EVO 12S winch
Rage 4th sliders
Artec aluminum skids
ARB dual compressor
KC Flex ERA 4 lights

7/8 tank of gas, no one in the Jeep, no tools or recovery gear. Just the Jeep and its floor mats:

5160 lbs. With no gas, that'd be about 5050 lbs, a good 4/500 lbs over the claimed curb weight. I wish I'd gotten it weighed before I did any mods; but never got around to it.

My GVWR is 5800 lbs.

As heavy as that is, makes me glad I opted for alum bumpers and skids, or it'd be even heavier.

 

[21JLURDG]

My point of this thread was to get people thinking about their add-ons and how they were affecting their vehicle weights. I have no opinion on the legality or how it affects your warranty. Personally, I’m only worried that should I get into an accident, the other party could make a legal argument that I was more responsible because I was overloaded. It the same idea as drinking and driving: Regardless of whether you caused an accident, there’s a presumption of guilt if your BAC is over the legal limit. If you don’t want to worry about it or don’t give a…hoot, don’t. Just some of us do like to have all the available information.

In my personal opinion, the payload capacity of our Wrangles is ridiculously low. And again, my personal opinion says that it’s a matter of Jeep’s liability. That to me explains why there is a variance in weight capacities in different countries. I have no idea what it takes to increase GVWR, but I know there is an established (and expensive) legal process to accomplish it in Australia and UK (based on my readings in 4x4 UK & 4x4 Magazine Australia).

The argument of using a smaller spare has been discussed many times on other pages so I will not get into it here. I have experience using full size spares, mini-spares, and patching tires to drive home at highway speeds. I understand the limitations of using a smaller spare, but I decided that is my best option.

 

[dragoneggs]

My weight issue is predicated on the fact that I tow mine behind a Class C RV. Without loading the Jeep up I am pressing up against both the towing capacity and before that the CGVWR (limiting factor). Although I am more than happy with my 2dr JLR, a 4 door was out of the question.

So my challenge which has been fun.. outfitting my rig, miniaturizing and minimizing weight to carry all of the off-road and camping gear. That and trying to buy American has lightened my wallet significantly! I am afraid to weigh it now… and I’m not talking about my wallet. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Shibadog]

I am always amazed at the way some folks will add a bunch of weight to a Jeep,install mods that significantly increase drag on what’s already the least aerodynamic vehicle on the road and then wonder why performance, ride, handling and fuel economy aren’t what they should be. There are NO free lunches in life-everything you change has the potential to create other changes you may not like . There IS a reason Jeep uses some weight saving components noir Jeeps. Install whatever mods you wish, but think first…I went with aftermarket Aluminum bumpers to keep weight down while still giving a good mount for my winch-which I actually use on occasion. I’m running a larger tank and but still a factory size set of tires. The combo has increased my off road capability with minimal (but still measurable) downsides. I’ve nothing against modding, but know you will “pay” a price for every goodie you install. There are folks who’ve bought new “dealer modified” Jeeps (lifts, tires/wheels) who quickly tire of their new rig. There are others who rapidly leap on the “build” train who later regret their modifications. Please guys think carefully before investing time any money. If you actually need a modification for the way you use your rig (or if “The Look” is all important) then go for it but know upfront there are downsides. You’ll be happierJeepers and your wallet will thank you

 

[ChuckQue]

My point of this thread was to get people thinking about their add-ons and how they were affecting their vehicle weights. I have no opinion on the legality or how it affects your warranty. Personally, I’m only worried that should I get into an accident, the other party could make a legal argument that I was more responsible because I was overloaded. It the same idea as drinking and driving: Regardless of whether you caused an accident, there’s a presumption of guilt if your BAC is over the legal limit. If you don’t want to worry about it or don’t give a…hoot, don’t. Just some of us do like to have all the available information.

In my personal opinion, the payload capacity of our Wrangles is ridiculously low. And again, my personal opinion says that it’s a matter of Jeep’s liability. That to me explains why there is a variance in weight capacities in different countries. I have no idea what it takes to increase GVWR, but I know there is an established (and expensive) legal process to accomplish it in Australia and UK (based on my readings in 4x4 UK & 4x4 Magazine Australia).

The argument of using a smaller spare has been discussed many times on other pages so I will not get into it here. I have experience using full size spares, mini-spares, and patching tires to drive home at highway speeds. I understand the limitations of using a smaller spare, but I decided that is my best option.

I’ll say this, from my personal perspective as a law enforcement officer in California, I’ve never seen vehicle weight come into play during an accident investigation for a non-commercial vehicle. I’m not saying it can’t, I’m just saying in the many many crash reports I’ve taken, I’ve never factored that in. Fault is generally determined (opinion) based on things like speed, unsafe turning movements or lane changes, etc. Very basic, common sense stuff. However, should you be the unlucky soul who TC’d and the responding officer was a traffic wizard you COULD face that issue. Maybe a commercial enforcement guy from CHP or something.

Honestly, this is one of those situations where you could “what if” yourself to death. I figure I’ll build my Jeep as I please, try not to add weight where I can and ultimately I just drive more carefully. I do have the advantage in that I’m used to pushing a vehicle to its ragged limits, so I know how to determine based on feel what the vehicle’s capabilities are.

Shit, you want to talk about weight limits and vehicle handling, try blasting a caged out, trunk loaded, five full grown men packed into an old Crown Vic around on a race track with OEM brakes and suspension. I remember the first time I saw the track cars for the emergency vehicle operations course and I was scratching my head as to why the steelie wheels were painted white. It was later explained that they pushed those vehicles so hard they would crack the wheels and the best way to tell was the white paint would show rust from the cracking. Ha!

 

[ChuckQue]

Give yourself more stopping distance, reduce speed earlier before cornering, use the entire lane for said cornering, don’t ignore brake fade, etc.

I personally wouldn’t use the spare as an area for weight savings. I’d be more inclined to look elsewhere to trim fat.

 

[Jtclayton612]

I know the towing capacity for the European market is considerably higher. I wonder if GVWR is different as well? I briefly looked but couldn’t find anything.

If it is higher, exceeding the US weight still wouldn’t be legal, but it would definitely be safe.

I don’t think it is, I think the big difference is Europe limits towing speed to 55mph, among a couple other things.

actually the one neat thing too even if expensive is the re-engineering certificates Australia does can also come with legal gvwr and payload increases, even though The rest of all that is annoying.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Mine weighs 5700 with a full tank of gas and nothing in it so it is on the heavy side. However, when I consider what I have added, there are not a lot of options to make it lighter versus cost.

The MC skid plate system weighs 149 versus 86 for an aluminum system from Artec, but I would spend double the cost for the Artec to save 63 pounds.

I have the OEM steel bumpers which are not super heavy to begin with and though I do not have the weight of them, I took the front off by myself with no straining so it is not very heavy. An aluminum set (F&R) would be in the upper 2K range so again cost versus weight saving likely not worth it.

The MC lift/suspension kit is considerably heavier than the OEM components which are thin-walled stamped steel, but other kits are equally as robust and thus heavier than OEM. There are some aluminum components out there, but again, you are going to pay for them.

The CavFab tire carrier is heavy versus something like the Mopar aluminum reinforcement/relocation kit, but in no way does the Mopar compare to the CavFab and other comparable units are likely as heavy as the CavFab.

My wheel and tire combo added 6.9 pounds to the tailgate versus the OEM wheel and 33" Falken MTs, but that is miniscule considering I went from 33" to 37" tires.

In the end, depending on what you want to do with your Jeep, weight is something you have to either live with or be prepared to pay $$$$ for lighter components. For me, the cost was not worth it and the brands I chose are all top notch.

YMMV!

 

[JeepinJason33]

I’ll say this, from my personal perspective as a law enforcement officer in California, I’ve never seen vehicle weight come into play during an accident investigation for a non-commercial vehicle. I’m not saying it can’t, I’m just saying in the many many crash reports I’ve taken, I’ve never factored that in. Fault is generally determined (opinion) based on things like speed, unsafe turning movements or lane changes, etc. Very basic, common sense stuff. However, should you be the unlucky soul who TC’d and the responding officer was a traffic wizard you COULD face that issue. Maybe a commercial enforcement guy from CHP or something.

Honestly, this is one of those situations where you could “what if” yourself to death. I figure I’ll build my Jeep as I please, try not to add weight where I can and ultimately I just drive more carefully. I do have the advantage in that I’m used to pushing a vehicle to its ragged limits, so I know how to determine based on feel what the vehicle’s capabilities are.

Shit, you want to talk about weight limits and vehicle handling, try blasting a caged out, trunk loaded, five full grown men packed into an old Crown Vic around on a race track with OEM brakes and suspension. I remember the first time I saw the track cars for the emergency vehicle operations course and I was scratching my head as to why the steelie wheels were painted white. It was later explained that they pushed those vehicles so hard they would crack the wheels and the best way to tell was the white paint would show rust from the cracking. Ha!

First off, thank you for continuing your service in law enforcement. Not sure how you do it, especially in California. Times are crazy right now for law enforcement and it is way more dangerous than it should be do to judicial system, politics, and the incredible mindset that breaking the law or even killing someone is not that big of a deal.

You validated what many have said, unless a commercial vehicle is involved, there is almost never a question about weight. I have managed companies that have had both light duty fleets and heavy duty fleets and for the light duty fleet, there was only a question about weight when a vehicle had a crap ton of stuff strapped to it that was an obvious danger and probably should have been pulled over before the accident. Unless a Jeep had stuff stacked on top of it like that, I doubt weight would ever be questioned. Either way it does not matter, you were either at fault or you were not at fault. If you were at fault, weight does not really make any difference as far as responsibility, you are still liable. If you are overweight and someone plows into you, it is still their fault.

 

[ChuckQue]

First off, thank you for continuing your service in law enforcement. Not sure how you do it, especially in California. Times are crazy right now for law enforcement and it is way more dangerous than it should be do to judicial system, politics, and the incredible mindset that breaking the law or even killing someone is not that big of a deal.

You validated what many have said, unless a commercial vehicle is involved, there is almost never a question about weight. I have managed companies that have had both light duty fleets and heavy duty fleets and for the light duty fleet, there was only a question about weight when a vehicle had a crap ton of stuff strapped to it that was an obvious danger and probably should have been pulled over before the accident. Unless a Jeep had stuff stacked on top of it like that, I doubt weight would ever be questioned. Either way it does not matter, you were either at fault or you were not at fault. If you were at fault, weight does not really make any difference as far as responsibility, you are still liable. If you are overweight and someone plows into you, it is still their fault.

I appreciate your kind words sir!

Agreed, I think some folks are getting hung up on a possibility, one which will in all likelihood never come into play for them. There’s always a possibility, yes, but that’s with anything and everything. I was far more likely to slip in the rain while picking up dog crap earlier than for my overweight Jeep to be scrutinized in a collision.

What I will say is all these folks who strap big, heavy duty bumpers on their rigs are, in my opinion, more likely to be sued post collision than an overweight one with the factory bumper. Why? Because litigious people see that glaring, big hard bumper and think, “That thing almost killed me!” Then the attorney they hire goes, “You are absolutely correct!” Why? It’s because you see it there, standing out and obvious. Anyone who has been through a lawsuit knows the bar for civil court is very low. Again, it’s a minor risk, but it’s there.

I think the biggest takeaway from this thread and our knowledge our rigs are heavier than the manufacturer intended is DRIVE IT KNOWING THAT! Again, give yourself extra braking distance, don’t blow the stale yellow, drive defensively because you have impacted your driving ability with the added issues of said weight. Maintain your brakes, steering and suspension.

Trust me, it doesn’t matter if your vehicle is overweight or not. You get sniped by a crafty accident attorney, you’re in a war regardless.

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