Payload vs Upgrades -- a cautionary tale

[CarbonSteel]

Case in point 37" mud grappler weighs 97lbs, raceline beadlock weighs 42lbs, and even the aluminum teraflex spare tire carrier weighs 62lbs (the cavfab version has got to be over 100lbs) for a total of 200lbs. Stock Rubicon wheel and tire weigh 71lbs. That's a delta of 129lbs, or more than most winches and winch plates.

Examples in both directions can be found, but the point IS that it does not necessarily have to be a huge increase in weight to go from 33" to 37" as shown in my example.

Sponsored

 

[bjm00se]

This argument's getting increasingly strident and generating more and more heat, and less and less light.

One example is comparing heaviest possible 33s to lightest possible 37s.... c'mon man. For comparable tires, 37s are heavier than 33s, and many folks go to an aftermarket rim that's 30+ lbs.

Look, the point of this thread is to be thoughtful when adding weight, because everything adds up, and the risk of breakage and failure is higher the heavier the jeep is.

Everything is tradeoffs, and one possible tradeoff is running an off-size spare; especially if that means you don't have to upgrade your tailgate.

Heck, one tradeoff is the "spare delete." That doesn't work for my style of wheeling, and I wouldn't do it. But even Rock Krawler does it on their custom travel rigs; you going to argue with them?

As I posted earlier in the thread, I wheeled with a guy who used my off-size spare to get out the rest of the trail and 200 paved miles home. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to put an off size spare on the rear and then drive 80+ mph 1000 miles all the way across Montana and Idaho before doing a tire change.

Thoughtful and complete examination of the potential situations and picking the best compromise is better than hard-and-fast rules.

 

[dcmdon]

Putting a 33 on one side of an axle and a 37 on the other is downright stupid. Just delete the spare at that point if one more tire breaks the bank.

The temp spares are almost always the same diameter as the OEM wheel/tire, just thinner. When they're not, they're advised to be on the rear of an FWD vehicle.

It's stupid if you plan to drive on it for a week.

If you plan to use it to get home or to a tire shop, it's perfectly fine.

If it's on the front and you are in 2wd, the FAD is disconnected and its not just fine but perfectly irrelevant.

 

[jessedacri]

It's stupid if you plan to drive on it for a week.

If you plan to use it to get home or to a tire shop, it's perfectly fine.

If it's on the front and you are in 2wd, the FAD is disconnected and its not just fine but perfectly irrelevant.

eh. It looks stupid, and a lot of us aren’t running FADs. To each their own, but a little Michelin on the back of a Jeep on 37s is like running an angry grill to me.

As long as whoever is doing it is fully aware, then whatever gets the job

 

[dcmdon]

eh. It looks stupid, and a lot of us aren’t running FADs. To each their own, but a little Michelin on the back of a Jeep on 37s is like running an angry grill to me.

As long as whoever is doing it is fully aware, then whatever gets the job

Who cares if it looks stupid. If it gets you home, then it's worth it.

I'd bet that 99% of JLs still have their FADs.

 

[CarbonSteel]

I'd bet that 99% of JLs still have their FADs.

Not sure that that can be compared to anything, but given there have been more than 1MM JLs made since 2018, 1% would be more than 10,000 of them.

Only super hard core Jeepers are going to remove the FAD--this forum has some of the most hard core Jeepers and I would highly doubt that 1% here have removed it...

 

[jessedacri]

Not sure that that can be compared to anything, but given there have been more than 1MM JLs made since 2018, 1% would be more than 10,000 of them.

Only super hard core Jeepers are going to remove the FAD--this forum has some of the most hard core Jeepers and I would highly doubt that 1% here have removed it...

It's not implausible that the same people lifting and putting on on 37s would likely also be in the market for stronger or replacement front axle shafts at some point. Many opt for the single piece "FAD delete" units. I've replaced my whole axle after breaking at that stupid FAD and if I ever get a new JL I'm either taking this axle with me or trussing it on day one. Shitty design.

 

[JeepinJason33]

I looked into trussing and to do it right is not cheap as you need to remove the seals to prevent them from possibly melting. Seems like a common upgrade along with RCV shafts. Looks like around $2,500 per axle or more depending on labor for the combo. I think I will wait until something major happens and then just upgrade the axles. I am hoping just re-gearing is the only sunk money I will have spent on the 44's, well that and the Tazor locker fix...

If you delete the FAD and put that plate there, the axle still has the weak spot in that area, the shaft is just stronger, right?

 

[dcmdon]

It's funny, a friend of mine trussed the one tons on his old schoole Jeep Cherokee completely DIY and it only cost him about $300 total.

Though it was a lot of work and he has a friend who is a welder who TIG'd it all together for him.

 

[CarbonSteel]

It's not implausible that the same people lifting and putting on on 37s would likely also be in the market for stronger or replacement front axle shafts at some point. Many opt for the single piece "FAD delete" units. I've replaced my whole axle after breaking at that stupid FAD and if I ever get a new JL I'm either taking this axle with me or trussing it on day one. Shitty design.

Stronger front shafts, no doubt, but the FAD delete on an OEM axle either leads to vibration at highway speeds or poor caster angles.

I replaced my front shafts with Dana Spicer CrMo (including the inner shaft) and trussed/gusseted it, but deleting the FAD was never a consideration due to the above. You have to either cut the mounts off and re-weld or buy an aftermarket axle with proper angles from the start to prevent the vibration while obtaining decent caster angles.

I would opine the percentage of people who do that are even less than the numbers of the first group.

The FAD is a direct result of CAFE requirements which the vast majority of design on the JL was done to meet--very little of it was done for durability.

 

[21JLURDG]

Wow. I wanted to start a discussion on weight gain vs upgrades, and I'm fascinated by the various views and inputs from our members. I will say I’m disappointed (not surprised) by the multiple uses of “stupid” in presenting opinions--sometimes incorrectly stated as knowledge.

A few of you did a great job of commenting how weight gain can sneak up on you and the possible repercussions. And I love the clarity on the liability issue. But as someone with engineering degrees, I particularly love the mathematical analysis. Awesome!

I did point out in my previous post that I’m familiar with the disadvantages of using a smaller spare. And knowing these disadvantages, I have plans for mitigation and alternatives for consequences. But at the risk of fanning the flames, I’ll add some additional information.

Some years ago, I upsized my TJ from 35x12.50R on ARE aluminum wheels to Maxxis M8090 38x13 (bias-ply) on Spyderlock beadlocks. The full-size spare quickly destroyed my Smittybilt tire carrier and led me to upgrade to a heavy-duty ORD tire carrier. I don’t remember the weight of everything, but I’d say I added 200-300 lbs. over my rear axle. Who cares if this is a rock crawling toy? Well, try this next time you go out and play on the trail: go to the base of one of the “fun” obstacles, and have your ex-football friend “Tiny” stand on your rear bumper while you tackle (PI) this obstacle. See if it makes any difference. I can tell you it the extra ~1000-1500 lbs. I added to that TJ caused me heartache when trying to keep up with guys like Jason Bunch on his YJ w/31s(?)—embarrassing.

 

[Yogi]

DOT scales have no jurisdiction over non-commercial loads.

Oh yes they do. Better reread those regs. Granted, as I already mentioned, it is highly unlikely you would ever get weighed in a PPV, but it is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. Ask just about everyone that hauls too big of a boat with too small of a pick up truck or car
Every law enforcement agency has the option to direct you to a DOT scale for a weight if they think you are overweight.
As for your 26,001 lbs, that is the lower limit for requiring a CDL.
If your GVWR is 10,001 lbs, think Ford F350 and landscape trailer with a couple riding mowers on it, you are classed as a commercial vehicle, must do a pre trip inspection every day, and must adhere to the HOS regulations.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Oh yes they do. Better reread those regs. Granted, as I already mentioned, it is highly unlikely you would ever get weighed in a PPV, but it is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. Ask just about everyone that hauls too big of a boat with too small of a pick up truck or car
Every law enforcement agency has the option to direct you to a DOT scale for a weight if they think you are overweight.
As for your 26,001 lbs, that is the lower limit for requiring a CDL.
If your GVWR is 10,001 lbs, think Ford F350 and landscape trailer with a couple riding mowers on it, you are classed as a commercial vehicle, must do a pre trip inspection every day, and must adhere to the HOS regulations.

You mean you're commercial landscape truck is classified as commercial, shocking. If you're hauling a boat, or even towing a trailer with your jeep there's a very slight chance you could get pulled into a scale. There's 0 chance your JL that's over weight by a couple hundred pounds tops gets pulled in period. Sure, fill it full of concrete bags and it's possible, but riding around on the bump stops will probably fix that oversight on your part far faster than you could find a cop who would even try to direct you to a scale. I misspoke, meaning that you don't have to stop at scales and no dot officer is ever coming after you in your JL, even though they theoretically could. With out soft suspensions and already less than spectacular steering, I'm willing to bet your Jeep becomes undriveable long before you could overload it to the point where even the most discerning officer would question it. We weren't talking boats or actual commercial equipment hauling, but the fact that many of our build will be over weight by several hundred pounds when loaded for a trip.

 

[Ratbert]

I know the towing capacity for the European market is considerably higher. I wonder if GVWR is different as well? I briefly looked but couldn’t find anything.

If it is higher, exceeding the US weight still wouldn’t be legal, but it would definitely be safe.

As far as I can tell the international GVWRs are all the same as domestic. Unfortunately towing capacity isn't listed on a build sheet part, so I can't query that one directly.

 

[DonBucket]

It's not implausible that the same people lifting and putting on on 37s would likely also be in the market for stronger or replacement front axle shafts at some point. Many opt for the single piece "FAD delete" units. I've replaced my whole axle after breaking at that stupid FAD and if I ever get a new JL I'm either taking this axle with me or trussing it on day one. Shitty design.

My FAD Failed this weekend. I off-road about 2 times per month... So I am thinking of Deleting the FAD, and go with RCV Axle Shafts to do so.

https://www.rcvperformance.com/ulti...set-for-jeep-wrangler-jl-rubicon-1-piece.html

I know the Front Driveshaft will now spin, and that may or may not be problematic... So I am not sure on the Plan of action at this moment.

This is the Broken Piece I found when I removed the FAD.

It isn't the c-clip... seems like Plastic?

Sponsored