Metalcloak lock-n-load vs Game changer

[AnnDee4444]

Anyone ever explored what long-arms do to pinion angle? Without simulating it, I suspect the angle change to be less than with stock-length arms. So what does this do when flexing? Better or worse for bushing bind? Should pinion be parallel with the transfer case in this scenario (with single cardan joints)?

Also somewhat related... since the long-arm has less front-back movement, the axle would "steer" less when in a corner (not sure if steer is the right term here).

Too many things to think about.



edit: beat me by 1 minute.

crab walking or rear steer

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[c20040215]

Anyone ever explored what long-arms do to pinion angle? Without simulating it, I suspect the angle change to be less than with stock-length arms. So what does this do when flexing? Better or worse for bushing bind? Should pinion be parallel with the transfer case in this scenario (with single cardan joints)?

Also somewhat related... since the long-arm has less front-back movement, the axle would "steer" less when in a corner (not sure if steer is the right term here).

Too many things to think about.



edit: beat me by 1 minute.

It's the relationship between upper and lower arms more than "long arm" and "short arm".

If you haven't figured out, I watch a lot of his videos and they are very informative and unbiased.
The whole video is good but the pinion angle during the suspension travel cycle starts at around 8:30 mark.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Unless you have really steep control arm angles (6" lifted tj with short arms maybe) I don't think rear steer is an issue when cornering. Crawling and fully flexed, you will see a bit of rear steer for sure. The flatter the arms at ride height, the less arc swing you'll have during normal driving conditions at any length. Double triangulated arms will have even less rear steer, but that's a level of suspension building that A. Isn't necessary for most and B. Is hard to do with our fuel tanks where they are. The buggified WJ on 3 link long arm front and double triangulated 4 link rear was like a cadillac on the trail for sure (the cushy leather seats of the limited it started life as helped). Not interested in all the fabing at this point in my life which is why the drop brackets seem like a great compromise between bolt on ease, on road ride, and off road performance.

 

[guarnibl]

Nice info. Yeah I discovered the 4.5 are 1.5" longer uncompressed than the 3.5 springs. Mine are also loose at full flex. I run the 3.5 currently.

I run 8's at Sand Hollow and there are things I can't climb that I would need 40's for, mainly undercut or steep ledges... One bad (good) spot on Front Range, an 8 rated trail is off camber to driver and you either climb a 4ft vertical wall to get your tire up on that (preferred) or you end up with the tire in a hole and the jeep tipped into the hole pushing your tire deeper, rather than crawling out of the hole... this is where winching to prevent axle breakage comes in

My friend on long arm 40s went up the 4ft wall. Mine wouldn't climb the wall. I think/know I need geo changes to my control arms as they dont want to climb this stuff, they end up digging in. I think flatter angles will help a little more.

I "may" combine that with the 4.5 springs and see how that goes on 37's before heading uncontrollably into 40's.. 37s just fit nice, with tons of options to choose from and no cutting required. Plus the XR HD Dana axles are holding up fine.

Geo changes and springs are WAY cheaper than Axles and 40's so I figure Ill head down that path first...

As someone that went down this path first, I ended up on 40's pretty fast. BUT -- that's a path you'd be going down anyway, with 40's still -- so I don't think you're doing work twice so to speak.

 

[Yellow Cake Kid]

I’d like to see short arm with drop bracket if anyone is running them yet.

I was just down at the shop and one of the fellows had his rig with the DB3 drop brackets, 6 pack shocks and 60's sitting there, but I did not take a photo.

My 2020 Rubicon with a plain old 3.5" GameChanger definitely rear steers and crab walks, but at the blazing 2 mph I drive, it just does not seem to matter much to me.

I'm with you though, I certainly feel the pronounced downsides of the plain old mid-arm set up when I drive at 20mph on nasty pavement from the house down to Main Street. I don't like feeling the back end sway, but it is what it is. I could get a 4 Runner if it bothered me that much.

And yet on the highways, which get repaved more often than the townie streets, the Jeep feels pretty good.

There are bunches of long arm JKs, TJs, and LJs in town that demonstrate the benefits of a long arm geometry.

But we also get to watch guys in old Toyota HiLux Pickups floating on 6" lift leaf spring suspensions making it look easy breezy on the same obstacles where the wild children show us how to flip a fully tricked out JL.

That said, I have really been looking forward to crawling under Will's Metalcloak JL and checking out the JL longarms in a few weeks. You know I want them.

Good times.

 

[fasteddie760]

I'm now leaning towards Rock Krawler for the main purpose that the front and rear lower mounts do not hang down. Also raising the rear axle control arm mounts looks like a massive difference. I will miss out on the 6pak shocks, but the RRD 2.25 shocks seem to be getting good reviews. And I really like the 3 link rear setup.

 

[Zandcwhite]

I'm now leaning towards Rock Krawler for the main purpose that the front and rear lower mounts do not hang down. Also raising the rear axle control arm mounts looks like a massive difference. I will miss out on the 6pak shocks, but the RRD 2.25 shocks seem to be getting good reviews. And I really like the 3 link rear setup.

You could run the 6pak shocks with the rock krawler long arms? If you're one of those that believe their shocks are "tuned" to their springs (I don't buy it, metalcloak sells the same shocks with their 2.5, 3.5, and 4.5" springs, which ones are they "tuned" for?) buy the rock krawler long arm upgrade kit and run metalcloak springs and 6paks.

 

[fasteddie760]

You could run the 6pak shocks with the rock krawler long arms? buy the rock krawler long arm upgrade kit and run metalcloak springs and 6paks.

This might be a good idea. I'm gonna look into it. Be really nice if there were some reviews on the 6paks.

Ed

 

[hoag4147]

This might be a good idea. I'm gonna look into it. Be really nice if there were some reviews on the 6paks.

Ed

Check with Mike @Headbarcode . He is running them ??

 

[Headbarcode]

You could run the 6pak shocks with the rock krawler long arms? If you're one of those that believe their shocks are "tuned" to their springs (I don't buy it, metalcloak sells the same shocks with their 2.5, 3.5, and 4.5" springs, which ones are they "tuned" for?) buy the rock krawler long arm upgrade kit and run metalcloak springs and 6paks.

I've had both the 3.5" and now the 4.5" springs, and the only noticed difference is ride height with the 6-packs. Spring rate feels the same, which is what the shocks are tuned to.

Only other difference I've personally experienced with the different spring lengths, is in downtravel during axle articulation. The 3.5" springs were unseating before the 6-packs reached full extension, whereas the 4.5" springs stay put at a higher level of droop.

 

[fasteddie760]

I've had both the 3.5" and now the 4.5" springs, and the only noticed difference is ride height with the 6-packs. Spring rate feels the same, which is what the shocks are tuned to.

Only other difference I've personally experienced with the different spring lengths, is in downtravel during axle articulation. The 3.5" springs were unseating before the 6-packs reached full extension, whereas the 4.5" springs stay put at a higher level of droop.

Are you happy with the shocks? Are they with the money compared to other shocks? How are they on everything outside rock crawling? (washboard roads, whoops, street, etc)

 

[Headbarcode]

Check with Mike @Headbarcode . He is running them ??

Beat me by 2 minutes.

 

[Zandcwhite]

I've had both the 3.5" and now the 4.5" springs, and the only noticed difference is ride height with the 6-packs. Spring rate feels the same, which is what the shocks are tuned to.

Only other difference I've personally experienced with the different spring lengths, is in downtravel during axle articulation. The 3.5" springs were unseating before the 6-packs reached full extension, whereas the 4.5" springs stay put at a higher level of droop.

The 3.5" rear springs use a 19/32" wire, the 4.5" use a 5/8" wire, and the 2.5" use a 9/16" wire. There's no way those 3 coils have the same spring rates and yet they sell you the same 6 paks for all 3. The rocksports aren't even front and rear specific. I know they don't like to publish spring rates, but like I said there's no way the same shocks are "tuned" to 3 different rates in the case of the 6paks or 5 different rates with the rocksports. In reality shocks should be tuned to vehicle weight and unsprung weight more than spring rate (unless you're running bypass shocks and multi-rate coils) which is why you can run the same shocks with any of their springs or anyone elses for that matter. Accutune doesn't ask for your spring rates when you ordered custom tuned shocks, they ask for corner weights.

 

[XtremeRetard]

I think what they mean by tuned, is tuned to compressed and uncompressed lengths more than the actual rate. The rocksports are very soft. Good for flopping the suspension around over rocks, but not so much high speed sand running. I ran fox's before them and they were very nice.

 

[Zandcwhite]

I think what they mean by tuned, is tuned to compressed and uncompressed lengths more than the actual rate. The rocksports are very soft. Good for flopping the suspension around over rocks, but not so much high speed sand running. I ran fox's before them and they were very nice.

Even there, how is the same shock "tuned" for the front and rear and/or 3 different lift heights? I'm no suspension engineer, but I know for a fact that springs of 5 different wire diameters don't have the same spring rate and you can run a much longer shock on the rear of a JL than you can on the front for a given amount of bump stop. That's why every other manufacturer has different shocks for the front and the rear, the compressed length is more limited up front. The front is also quite a bit heavier so I'd imagine they valve them heavier up front. That's the opposite of what you'd expect if they were matching them to the spring rates as the rears are almost always higher rate (including metalcloak). Just my observations where a lot of people act like they have to run the shocks that "x" manufacturer sells with their lift, not in my experience and logically if you look at all the kits across each manufacturer you'll find the same. The shocks being "tuned" to the springs is a myth.

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