Yup, it's another Rubicon or 4Runner question

[jeep4runner]

I get it....you want the 5th gen, but take it from a Toyota guy....the Rubicon will be far more capable for a lot less money if you are trying to make the 5th gen even close to comparable.

Sorry, I don't think I was clear (my bad): I'm definitely debating between a Rubi and a 4Runner. IF I were to go with a 4Runner (if), it would be a 5th gen—not another generation.

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[jeep4runner]

None taken, just not the point of the thread. Yeah I didnt mean he had no fab skill just that it wasnt in his OP. He said used one at 27k, at that price point it is relatively new.

I bought a new 97 wrangler at 20k. I quickly added stuff up I did to it to make it capable. I could have bought a new rubi, with that cash. It adds up and if the OP goes toy and tries to compete with a jeep he will be spending more coin then a new rubi at least at the price point of 27.

We have a 97 four runner and would take it too but it aint no JL or new Toy. Yeah the JL and new toy are complex but I'm taking ride quality creature comforts and still it's new and less likely to chit on a road trip.

Again a jeep is more versatile with it's capabilities. If the OP doesnt need that the Toy is probably smarter because of reliability and money. But if he's like me and thinking he doesnt need it (jeep capabilities)...many times you find out differently. Been there done that. lol

So to respond to both of you

I never said I had or didn't have fab skills (although I personally don't... but I'd love to learn). And I think the point you made here:

I bought a new 97 wrangler at 20k. I quickly added stuff up I did to it to make it capable. I could have bought a new rubi, with that cash. It adds up and if the OP goes toy and tries to compete with a jeep he will be spending more coin then a new rubi at least at the price point of 27.

We have a 97 four runner and would take it too but it aint no JL or new Toy. Yeah the JL and new toy are complex but I'm taking ride quality creature comforts and still it's new and less likely to chit on a road trip.

... is important to note.

This is inline with how I'm thinking. Long-term cost and overall gain. To couple this with something someone else said: a 4Runner is great, but a Jeep may make me happy. That's an emotional connection that's important to me, too. I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[jeep4runner]

No, you were clear. I was just saying the 5th Gens are going to take more work and more money than earlier generations to get them as "capable" as the Rubi.

Ah. And yeah, you're right. I love the 5th gens, but agree the reality to get them near what a Jeep can do would be costly overall. And there are things I'll never change—like the size of it compared to a smaller Jeep (and smaller size has it's advantages).

Part of my problem (that can't get solved here, unfortunately) is I personally don't know the limit of what I can do off-road with a 4Runner when compared to a Jeep—and if that limit is still enough to make me enjoy it. That's why everyone's input here has been invaluable so far, so thank you.

 

[jeep4runner]

At $27K, you've still got somewhere north of $20K to build and that's over time...(so it is relevant, though I will cede that most likely the OP isn't talking this level of modification). If one does have those skills....that's a dual Marlin case, and depending on how one builds it, 300M equipped custom Toyota (or even 1T) axles with lockers as well as a SFA conversion with either coilovers or ORIs and chromo links and joints...or the new IFS rockcrawler suspension Marlin is coming out with.

See, I disagree on the comfort levels. While my 99 4Runner is definitely less technologically advanced and definitely under-powered comparatively, it's FAR and away more comfortable than the wife's JLUR in terms of the actual seating in the vehicle for both myself (the B pillar in the JL is one of the most poorly laid out set ups a human factors engineer ever designed IMO) and passengers in the back seat. Frankly, I'm perplexed how back in '99 Toyota managed to give more cargo space inside the vehicle and more interior room for the occupants than the JL does 20 years later in a vehicle that is physically quite a bit larger. All with a stock frame height on ~31s that is higher than the JL's on true 37s.

Again, not disagreeing with you....but there are a lot of ways to skin this cat depending on how specialized one wishes to make the vehicle in question. As I said before, to me...it *sounds* like the OP should buy a Rubicon and be done with it. I'm in the midst of modding both the wife's JLUR and my '99. She chose the JL b/c it was quicker to build than the TJ I bought her for a DD/trail rig since the TJ mods were going to be so extensive and time consuming.

I think this is a great point:

While my 99 4Runner is definitely less technologically advanced and definitely under-powered comparatively, it's FAR and away more comfortable than the wife's JLUR in terms of the actual seating in the vehicle for both myself (the B pillar in the JL is one of the most poorly laid out set ups a human factors engineer ever designed IMO) and passengers in the back seat.

It's insights like this that are super useful as I don't know what I don't know. So thank you. Comfort is important to me. I want to make sure that on long drives to and from crawling or national parks, we enjoy the ride/are comfortable for another several hours on the highway. Cargo space is nice if we camp, but it's not crucial, as I know at very least I can put a RTT on a Jeep, too. And other than the dog and the mrs, no one is driving with me. I'd probably even remove the back seat altogether just for more space.

 

[jeep4runner]

If you're very broad shouldered and tall enough that you scoot the seat back (either front seat), that B pillar in the Jeep will make you sit slightly at an angle since it sticks into the passenger compartment a good 3". Just something to think about for longer trips.

Oh....and the rear doors in the JLU are much harder to get in and out of since the opening is smaller. If you have older folks or are trying to strap kids into car seats, the JLU isn't laid out well in terms of the back seat access.

Definitely no one is sitting in that back. Maybe the dog (and she has a harness with a strap on it). I might even remove the back seat altogether for more room.

 

[Litfuse]

No offense intended. Simply stated what's obvious; that for $50K you can build a helluva trail rig.

Further, I didn't see the OP said he had no fab skills. He said he'd mod slowly on a used Runner. I re-skimmed the first post quickly and still don't see the "no fab skills" comment. Maybe he said it later. Regardless, I'd have no qualms about taking my now 20 year old 4Runner across the country....it's simply preventative maintenance and I guarantee that as time progresses, vehicles will only get more complex and harder for the shade tree mechanic to work on themselves.

Ain’t that the truth. I like working on my cars, but I have a feeling this will soon end. I just sold my 5 speed manual 96 4Runner last year and I miss it every day. Luckily, I sold it to a friend and it is still running great with over 200k miles. Another friend has a 4Runner from the same year pushing 360,000 miles and running great. Built like tanks!

 

[jeep4runner]

X 2

JLUR and SR5 from work. SR5 is not a TRD Pro. I am not dumb. However vehicles aren’t even close at this point. Dated is an understatement. Saying that, I really like my SR5. I love love love my JLUR.

Of all the things I've heard from everyone so far, this always seems to be the overwhelming sentiment:

I really like my 4Runner. I love love love my JLUR

It sounds like I'd be perfectly happy with the 4Runner—especially the way I'd build it. But the amount of pure joy I'd get from a Jeep (besides it being in the shop for unnecessary things) far surpasses what I'd feel with a 4Runner.

 

[TrailTorque]

BUT, I'm not here to incite a flame war.

Flame war engaged.

It’s a very typical question here. Both are capable off-road vehicles.

That being said, please never consider or compare a used 4Runner over a brand new JLUR. It’s insulting and mind boggling.

Okay, that being said, I can understand where you’re coming from. However, have you considered any other model wranglers? They are all very capable. If budget and build is the goal, purchase a cheaper model wrangler and build as you please with your savings and what not. You can scoop up a new JLU Sport or Sport S for only a few more thousand than you mentioned the used 4Runner. This puts you in a new wrangler at your price point that you can mod as you please. I can assure you that (based off of your numbers) 27+10=37 <you won’t find a brand new Rubi for 37k anywhere. Just a thought man.

 

[Jebiruph]

Don't know if this has been posted yet or not.
http://www.fourwheeler.com/features...ar-which-4x4-wins-our-on-and-off-road-battle/

 

[twisty]

At $27K, you've still got somewhere north of $20K to build and that's over time...(so it is relevant, though I will cede that most likely the OP isn't talking this level of modification). If one does have those skills....that's a dual Marlin case, and depending on how one builds it, 300M equipped custom Toyota (or even 1T) axles with lockers as well as a SFA conversion with either coilovers or ORIs and chromo links and joints...or the new IFS rockcrawler suspension Marlin is coming out with.

See, I disagree on the comfort levels. While my 99 4Runner is definitely less technologically advanced and definitely under-powered comparatively, it's FAR and away more comfortable than the wife's JLUR in terms of the actual seating in the vehicle for both myself (the B pillar in the JL is one of the most poorly laid out set ups a human factors engineer ever designed IMO) and passengers in the back seat. Frankly, I'm perplexed how back in '99 Toyota managed to give more cargo space inside the vehicle and more interior room for the occupants than the JL does 20 years later in a vehicle that is physically quite a bit larger. All with a stock frame height on ~31s that is higher than the JL's on true 37s.

Again, not disagreeing with you....but there are a lot of ways to skin this cat depending on how specialized one wishes to make the vehicle in question. As I said before, to me...it *sounds* like the OP should buy a Rubicon and be done with it. I'm in the midst of modding both the wife's JLUR and my '99. She chose the JL b/c it was quicker to build than the TJ I bought her for a DD/trail rig since the TJ mods were going to be so extensive and time consuming.

It really isnt relevant to the OP thread purpose, but I guess still discuss-able. Even if you have major fab skills and use the extra 20k to build it when one considers time is money it still isnt worth it...unless of course one has a passion for it. Even then, while he's fabbing I'm wheeling/traveling and listening o sweet sounds on satellite radio, AMAZING on road manners and stellar off road manners.

My 97 TJ with atlas II, long arm suspended, worked rock rig aired down wont touch my ruby in comfort with the tires air UP on the trail. I am constantly floored by just how good it is. So good I'm scared to death modding it will screw that up....but I will haha.

Our 97 four runner is OK but it wont touch my Rubicon in comfort, not even close....Maybe the rubicon is different??. Front seat, back seat everyone is happy. The 97 has more room behind the back seats and that shouldnt be a surprise with all that overhang in the back, as a result you have lame departure angles. You'll need big honkin metal guards along with probably/maybe a higher lift to compensate,

Fun factor either. With 100HP more under the hood it eats our toyota again. Did you figure a new motor into that 20k? Driving that rig set up with big lift, big tires, tons of armor is not going to be fun vs a new Rubi. A well set up toy going any distance is likely going to be a trailer queen vs a ruby with will go from the home to the major wheeling in comfort.

I think the OP is after is a rig to take him off road and probably/maybe some famous moderate stuff, dunno....in comfort. What your talking about is hard core stuff. If the OP was after hard core stuff there is nothing more fun than a well setup older iron. If you screw up and nail the quarter panel who cares verses a 40+k ruby.

 

[twisty]

How was your Rubicon optioned though and are you considering taxes and licensing? We were $43,500 and just over $48K out the door. That's why I said "Almost 50K".

OTD=everything. Mine didnt come with many of the bells and whistles you can get with a rubicon. I think the only options I got was hard top, auto, and trailer tow.

 

[twisty]

So to respond to both of you

I never said I had or didn't have fab skills (although I personally don't... but I'd love to learn). And I think the point you made here:

I bought a new 97 wrangler at 20k. I quickly added stuff up I did to it to make it capable. I could have bought a new rubi, with that cash. It adds up and if the OP goes toy and tries to compete with a jeep he will be spending more coin then a new rubi at least at the price point of 27.

We have a 97 four runner and would take it too but it aint no JL or new Toy. Yeah the JL and new toy are complex but I'm taking ride quality creature comforts and still it's new and less likely to chit on a road trip.

... is important to note.

This is inline with how I'm thinking. Long-term cost and overall gain. To couple this with something someone else said: a 4Runner is great, but a Jeep may make me happy. That's an emotional connection that's important to me, too. I appreciate everyone's input.

We have a huge emotional attachment to our 4 runner too. You cant not help to have one, and rightly so. Not so much the vehicle but the things you do with them...trouble free. My son says he will drive it until it's dust. Of course I said that too with my 97 TJ and ditched it in favor of my JLUR and I would NEVER go back. lol

The cool thing about a jeep it's like having several different vehicles. Different soft tops, no tops, freedom tops off, half doors, full doors, no doors, windshield up/down, on and on. What way do you want to drive it this weekend? Then add the myriad of off road products and build it for a look or a purpose and hopefully both. No other rig comes close.

Go out to the trails set to do a little light weight wheeling and while having fun see a trail that might be a little tougher then what you were after that day...but where does it go? Looks kinda fun? More then likely your stock ruby can do vs a stock gen 5 toy. Amazing ground clearance, auto swaybar disco's Front a rear lockers, best in biz departure/approach angles. Probably more.

I set out thinking I'm done with anything remotely hard core so a toy was in my sites as was a jeep. But I knew myself, if I came upon a trail that was sketchy I want something that can do it. Versatility.

The cool thing about a toy is that while they arent as capable they are over engineered and you actually feel they care about what they build. That's a pretty powerful reason to get one. It really is hard to knock a toyota. If they had a straight front axle things might have gone different.

 

[twisty]

You can't quantify "worth" in time to anyone else but yourself. I'm the type of person that wants something built exactly the way I want it. To me the time spent is not only worth it, but enjoyable in the design itself (as you mentioned in your comment about "passion for" the endeavor). Custom also means it's unique and individualized....which in and of itself can be quite the draw.

As for the 4Runner....again, there's ways to deal with overhang. I'm stretching mine to a 114 to 117" wheelbase. The rear axle is going back up to 7 inches while the front is going forward 4" and my roof height will still be lower than our Jeep while roughly having 6" more clearance at the frame rail all with a smaller body that's easier to fight down tight trails.

For most trail running, I personally don't need the extra 100 HP. I'm quite happy with the 183 hp available, especially with dual tcases. I have a Lotus if I want to go fast on the road. 80 mph is fast enough (again, for me) with a long travel suspension and 37s on the highway. Not knocking more power....if someone wants it, have at it. There are SCs available too as another option; I just don't see the need and at least some of Toyota's legendary longevity is due to oversizing parts for the HP ratings produced by their engines. The 3.4L is very durable...I see no need to mess with that proven formula myself. The OP isn't talking about a 3rd Gen though either, just to clarify.

Again, you're making a lot of generalizations based on your personal viewpoint...as am I. I'll have no issue driving my 4Runner on the street to the trail and back (done it in the past with other more modified rigs), but I also have the option of trailering if I so choose.

My comments to the OP were merely that he can build something as offroad capable (moreso in some ways), but it makes more sense to just buy the Rubicon.

Your first paragraph basically said what I said. You have a passion for it, have at it. The OP hasnt indicated so.

Second paragraph is the same- OP hasnt indicated such a desire.

Third paragraph I agree for trail running you dont really need much more then a straight 6 or the toy motor. But getting to the far away trails would suck, SC's are costly, more time, and i think they need premium gas. Plus again the OP is talking Gen 5 and he can get a v8 anyway.

Four paragraph- My generalization is right though. lol Most people would prefer to get to the far away trails with a motor that isnt screaming, or going really slow on grades. I've done it on my 4.0l jeep with 4.56's on 35s. My JLUR is infinately more fun to drive...anywhere and in no way do I need or want to trailer such a fun vehicle. Your just coming from a different place then the OP and myself. Nothing wrong with that.

I understand your intent, it just doesnt fit what I have read from him. In many ways, older, built rigs are the most fun of all.

 

[ViperJon]

The cool thing about a jeep it's like having several different vehicles. Different soft tops, no tops, freedom tops off, half doors, full doors, no doors, windshield up/down, on and on. What way do you want to drive it this weekend? Then add the myriad of off road products and build it for a look or a purpose and hopefully both. No other rig comes close.

This is precisely the reason I own a Wrangler. I'm not an off-roader but in the summer I never know what version of the same vehicle I'm going to be driving. They look different and feel different depending on that days setup. Nothing else does that.

 

[jeep4runner]

Flame war engaged.

It’s a very typical question here. Both are capable off-road vehicles.

That being said, please never consider or compare a used 4Runner over a brand new JLUR. It’s insulting and mind boggling.

Okay, that being said, I can understand where you’re coming from. However, have you considered any other model wranglers? They are all very capable. If budget and build is the goal, purchase a cheaper model wrangler and build as you please with your savings and what not. You can scoop up a new JLU Sport or Sport S for only a few more thousand than you mentioned the used 4Runner. This puts you in a new wrangler at your price point that you can mod as you please. I can assure you that (based off of your numbers) 27+10=37 <you won’t find a brand new Rubi for 37k anywhere. Just a thought man.

Well, not a complete flame war, anyway.

Funny enough, I have found a few used 2018 Rubi's (2-door) with low miles for $34-$37k (one on this site). And I'm not comparing a used 4Runner to a new Rubi—I'm trying to figure out which one would be the best fit for my needs. I appreciate that each has their pros and cons. For example: one of the problems with a new Rubi (or new JLU) is that there are bound to be new gen issues. I wouldn't buy a 6th gen Runner in the first year of release for the same reason (whenever the hell they decide to get off their butts to do it). So reliability with the 4Runner is bound to be better. But, a JLU, regardless of model, is bound to smoke a 4Runner off-road with little to no modifications. So it's looking at short-term and long-term costs.

Having said that, I am definitely open to a lower model JLU to then build it up. I'm still figuring out all the options Jeep offers in those models (from a creature comfort standpoint). And I'm confident the aftermarket place will have a lot of options, as well.

For me, a lot of it boils down: Reliability, Functionality, Comfortability (on and off-road), and pure Joy. If I follow that framework, it almost seems like (and I could be wrong) it would go: 4R, JLU, 4R, JLU. So now I need to figure out if any of those matter more than the others. And right now, pure Joy may be that factor.

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