Willys vs Rubicon

[zouch]

@Wilco7487
how much lift you get from the Mopar "2-inch" lift will vary depending on what configuration you're starting with; the "Mopar Lift" is different for each engine and door configuration.

for example, my Willys Diesel went up over 4" in the front, and under 3" in the rear.
i added a metal bumper and winch to the front and it came out to where i thought it was about perfect,... in height.

as you'll find if you read around on it, some might consider the Mopar lift incomplete.
i found an adjustable front track bar and rear track bar relocation bracket were necessary to get the axles centered back underneath where they belong, and adjustable front control arms very helpful to get the caster to where (i think) it steers better.
i went straight to 35s after this and found that my choice of tires (Mickey Baja Boss MTs) actually rubbed on the LCAs, even (slightly) after i changed to wheels with a more forgiving offset. (bigger tires also probably want a stouter rear tailgate and relocated tire carrier; see how this spirals?)

all that said, i think this setup on the Willys woud be about perfect for what you described wanting to do... but you could probably do most of what you want with a smaller (lighter) tire and not need the spare tire carrier upgrades.

A 2” Mopar lift will be more like 3” on a Willys. Measurements are based on a Rubicon.

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[Capt. Don]

Rubicon > Willys because more letters.

Yes, but Gen. George C. Marshall said that the Jeep did more to win WWII than any other military vehicle. I know Ford and others built the Jeep also during the war, but basically that is the WWII Willys MB. That is quite a historical background for the Willys name. That is why I really like the Xtreme Recon being offered in the Willys. I'd tell Jeep to go one step further on the Willys XR and offer the new Eaton Detroit Trutrac differentials front and rear just now available for the big M210Wide HD front and M220 Wide rear axles with 4.56 gears on the Willys XR and High Tide. Different from Rubicon's lockers. They are not as good if one wheel is up in the air as the lockers but Trutracs are arguably better for all the time that you are driving, no matter the selection in your transfer case (4-Hi, 4-Lo or 2-Hi) and better in vehicle directional stability when engaged versus lockers. Combined with brake limited differentials (BLD), that would make Willys XR something special and puts some teeth in the High Tides. Lockers aren't the answer for all of us. I'd like something helping me on slick asphalt, debris covered trails with water and mud, standing water covered roads, and wash-outs. Seems to me this would be a better solution on snow covered asphalt roads and for overlanders as well, working 100% of the time that you are driving. A more thorough (from an offroad and an on-road perspective) and heavier duty (no clutch packs, no electronics, just HD bevel gears) solution than AWD.

 

[Wraif]

You asked... here's my opinions.

I'm a big-time overlander and have been Jeeping for years. And I've got a 2023 JLU 2.0 Willys XR Sting Gray on order. Unless you're really into hardcore rock crawling, you don't really need the Rubicon's 4:1 transfer case or the ability to fully lock your axles. Run with what you've got, and build on that platform. It'll be cheaper in the long run, and you'll get your jeep set-up exactly how you want it. Don't concern yourself with the high-fenders that the Rubicon comes with. Will not be an issue with what you want to do with your Jeep.

A mild lift & increase in tire size and True-Tracs front & rear would be about all you need to do what you say you want to do with your Jeep (IMO a True-Trac in the rear would be an upgrade from the factory Trac-lock, as those clutch packs will eventually wear out). I eventually plan on putting True-Tracs in my upcoming JLU (once I get over the hit my savings account is going to take when this thing arrives!).

I've had True-Tracs front and rear in two of my vehicles and they are incredible (a 96 Ram 1500 4x4 and a 98 Jeep ZJ). Invisible on pavement, but awesome for mild to moderate off-roading and in snow. Kinda what you want in a daily driver and weekend overlander vehicle.

My factory Willys XR is coming with factory 4.56 gears and 35" (315x70x17") tires and a 1.5" lift. The factory has already done the math for you here. So if you went with that gear/tire combo and a good quality 2" lift (lots of options on lifts), you'll be good in that respect. If you're going to put in True-Tracs, you might as well change the gear ratio at the same time. You might need new rims for the larger tires.

This would be a mild lift and a moderate increase in tire size - nothing crazy. And the True-Tracs would allow you to go where you want off-road. True-Tracs aren't sexy like "Lockers", but getting stuck or worrying about traction when it starts getting rough isn't fun or sexy either.

You might need different rims to run the 315/70/17" or 315/75/16" tires on your Jeep depending on your rims (someone help me out here). What size rims do you currently have now (16"? 17"?... but I'm more concerned with back spacing)? A slightly taller 33" tire (285/75/16 or 285/70/17 or 285/75/17) might fit fine on your current rims without rubbing. Add a gear change to 4.10 to compensate for the taller 33" tire. And a set of take-off Rubicon or XR springs might give you another inch or so of lift to clear these if you didn't want a full-on 2" lift kit.

This would be a slightly cheaper route, but you might end up kicking yourself once it is done because changing gears & installing True-Tracs will cost the same no matter what gear ratio you choose, and if you're paying someone to install a lift the labor is the same pretty much no matter how high you're lifting (up to a 2" lift anyways), and the price difference between 33" vs 35" tires isn't that much more in the end. So unless you're really in love with your current rims and the metric 35" tires won't work on your current rims, then I'd say go with the 4.56 gears and 35" tires.

Mud tires are great in mud, but kinda poor everywhere else. Unless you're into mudding, you're better off with a good aggressive all terrain (AT) tire. Lots of options out there (there're probably whole threads on this AT vs MT topic). Everyone has their favorite. FWIW I'm currently running 33" Mickey Thompson Baja Boss AT tires on my TJ (285/75/16"). Mine also have the 3-peak/snowflake rating for snow. I know you live in TX, but once you get into overlanding and traveling with your Jeep, you might start considering trips into snow country (Colorado isn't that far away from you in Overlanding terms, and Alaska/Canada is on lots of folks' Overlanding bucket lists).

Here's my current overlanding set-up (before the Mickey Thompson Baja Boss AT tires). I need a trailer because there's not much room in a TJ. And a JLU will be so much more comfortable to drive in for the long distances I tend to Overland with (I'm usually gone at least a week or more). I think my new JLU will feel plush compared to my TJ.

Speaking of Canada and Alaska... I get around.

What brand of trailer is that ? I’m guessing that you like it ? Any downsides to it ?

 

[PhoenixM3]

Yes, but Gen. George C. Marshall said that the Jeep did more to win WWII than any other military vehicle. I know Ford and others built the Jeep also during the war, but basically that is the WWII Willys MB. That is quite a historical background for the Willys name. That is why I really like the Xtreme Recon being offered in the Willys. I'd tell Jeep to go one step further on the Willys XR and offer the new Eaton Detroit Trutrac differentials front and rear just now available for the big M210Wide HD front and M220 Wide rear axles with 4.56 gears on the Willys XR and High Tide. Different from Rubicon's lockers. They are not as good if one wheel is up in the air as the lockers but Trutracs are arguably better for all the time that you are driving, no matter the selection in your transfer case (4-Hi, 4-Lo or 2-Hi) and better in vehicle directional stability when engaged versus lockers. Combined with brake limited differentials (BLD), that would make Willys XR something special and puts some teeth in the High Tides. Lockers aren't the answer for all of us. I'd like something helping me on slick asphalt, debris covered trails with water and mud, standing water covered roads, and wash-outs. Seems to me this would be a better solution on snow covered asphalt roads and for overlanders as well, working 100% of the time that you are driving. A more thorough (from an offroad and an on-road perspective) and heavier duty (no clutch packs, no electronics, just HD bevel gears) solution than AWD.

I’m sorry. Did you slip and hit your head. Please look up sarcasm and get back to us.

 

[SoCal]

you might spend more up front for the Rubicon, but you'll get more back when it's time to sell or trade it in.... so it will actually most likely cost you more money buying the less expensive one.

If you can afford it, get the Rubi.....

I was gonna get the Willys, but when I found a dealer doing 8% below invoice on factory orders I got the Rubicon... glad I did.

 

[ArmyRN]

What brand of trailer is that ? I’m guessing that you like it ? Any downsides to it ?

Recap: OP is interested in taking his JLU on Overlanding trips, and still keeping it as a daily driver.

The payload isn't that great on any Wrangler-type Jeep. And when overlanding, you've got heavy stuff, and you've got lighter but bulky (space occupying) stuff. And if you want to keep your Jeep as a daily driver, you probably don't want to be driving around in a loaded-up Jeep all the time.

That's where a little trailer comes in. I built it - mine is based off a Harbor Freight trailer frame. The tub measures at the base 40" x 50". It has 235/75/15" tires, and has a couple more inches of clearance under the trailer's straight axle compared to the Dana 44 under my TJ with 33" tires. It has been towed literally tens of thousands of miles over the years over all sorts of terrain and does great. My trailer stays parked in the shop loaded up till I want to go. The tub is tall enough so I can stack two 8-gallon action packers on top of each other and still have a couple inches to work with with the lid closed.

The tub is just an aluminum diamond plate box with a hinged locking lid (think truck cross-bed toolbox). I had it built like a WWII trailer tub because I think it looks cool pulled behind a Jeep. No fancy slide outs or anything - a box with a lid. There's a matching spare tire for the trailer bolted to the back of the tub, so no matter what vehicle I tow it with, I've got a spare for the trailer.

It is amazing how much stuff you can put inside and outside the trailer's tub. I have Cabela's Double sized tent cot bolted to the lid as my RTT. The lid can still open with the tent opened up.

Here's a link to the trailer build. I'm a nurse not a mechanic or fabricator - if I can build this, you can too. I had a company build to tub for the trailer.

Mini Harbor Freight (type) Trailer Ultimate Build-Up Thread | Jeep Enthusiast Forums (jeepforum.com)

So for me, a small trailer gives me the best of both worlds - I can drive my Jeep as a daily driver, and when I want to go Overlanding, I'm pretty much packed and ready to go (just add perishable foods in the cooler). Once I get my new JLU, I'll probably still bring the trailer Overlanding. The JLU should barely notice it is back there. My four-cylinder TJ definitely knows it is back there.

Please PM me if you have any questions about the trailer.

 

[flazoon]

I was in a similar dilemma a couple of years ago when my scheduled ursa minor top install was around the corner. I had a jlu sport s as my daily driver and I ended up getting a Rubicon to go with the tent and I'm glad I did so. I found the electronic sway bar disconnect a game changer in terms of ride confort on the trails. It's incredible. ( it automatically reconnects at 18mph+ though)

 

[Capt. Don]

you might spend more up front for the Rubicon, but you'll get more back when it's time to sell or trade it in.... so it will actually most likely cost you more money buying the less expensive one.

If you can afford it, get the Rubi.....

I was gonna get the Willys, but when I found a dealer doing 8% below invoice on factory orders I got the Rubicon... glad I did.

Great pictures and some good advice.

 

[Capt. Don]

Recap: OP is interested in taking his JL on Overlanding trips, and still keeping it as a daily driver.

The payload isn't that great on any Wrangler-type Jeep. And when overlanding, you've got heavy stuff, and you've got lighter but bulky (space occupying) stuff. And if you want to keep your Jeep as a daily driver, you probably don't want to be driving around in a loaded-up Jeep all the time.

That's where a little trailer comes in. I built it - mine is based off a Harbor Freight trailer frame. The tub measures at the base 40" x 50". It has 235/75/15" tires, and has a couple more inches of clearance under the trailer's straight axle compared to the Dana 44 under my TJ with 33" tires. It has been towed literally tens of thousands of miles over the years over all sorts of terrain and does great. My trailer stays parked in the shop loaded up till I want to go. The tub is tall enough so I can stack two 8-gallon action packers on top of each other and still have a couple inches to work with with the lid closed.

The tub is just an aluminum diamond plate box with a hinged locking lid (think truck cross-bed toolbox). I had it built like a WWII trailer tub because I think it looks cool pulled behind a Jeep. No fancy slide outs or anything - a box with a lid. There's a matching spare tire for the trailer bolted to the back of the tub, so no matter what vehicle I tow it with, I've got a spare for the trailer.

It is amazing how much stuff you can put inside and outside the trailer's tub. I have Cabela's Double sized tent cot bolted to the lid as my RTT. The lid can still open with the tent opened up.

Here's a link to the trailer build. I'm a nurse not a mechanic or fabricator - if I can build this, you can too. I had a company build to tub for the trailer.

Mini Harbor Freight (type) Trailer Ultimate Build-Up Thread | Jeep Enthusiast Forums (jeepforum.com)

So for me, a small trailer gives me the best of both worlds - I can drive my Jeep as a daily driver, and when I want to go Overlanding, I'm pretty much packed and ready to go (just add perishable foods in the cooler). Once I get my new JL, I'll probably still bring the trailer Overlanding. The JL should barely notice it is back there. My four-cylinder TJ definitely knows it is back there.

Please PM me if you have any questions about the trailer.

Great trailer pictures and explanation.

 

[The Last Cowboy]

I like that little trailer. I saw this one for sale locally. Don't know what the cost to build today vs the cost to buy is though.

https://sanantonio.craigslist.org/tro/d/san-antonio-military-overlanding-trailer/7576396843.html

 

[azwjowner]

Recap: OP is interested in taking his JL on Overlanding trips, and still keeping it as a daily driver.

The payload isn't that great on any Wrangler-type Jeep. And when overlanding, you've got heavy stuff, and you've got lighter but bulky (space occupying) stuff. And if you want to keep your Jeep as a daily driver, you probably don't want to be driving around in a loaded-up Jeep all the time.

That's where a little trailer comes in. I built it - mine is based off a Harbor Freight trailer frame. The tub measures at the base 40" x 50". It has 235/75/15" tires, and has a couple more inches of clearance under the trailer's straight axle compared to the Dana 44 under my TJ with 33" tires. It has been towed literally tens of thousands of miles over the years over all sorts of terrain and does great. My trailer stays parked in the shop loaded up till I want to go. The tub is tall enough so I can stack two 8-gallon action packers on top of each other and still have a couple inches to work with with the lid closed.

The tub is just an aluminum diamond plate box with a hinged locking lid (think truck cross-bed toolbox). I had it built like a WWII trailer tub because I think it looks cool pulled behind a Jeep. No fancy slide outs or anything - a box with a lid. There's a matching spare tire for the trailer bolted to the back of the tub, so no matter what vehicle I tow it with, I've got a spare for the trailer.

It is amazing how much stuff you can put inside and outside the trailer's tub. I have Cabela's Double sized tent cot bolted to the lid as my RTT. The lid can still open with the tent opened up.

Here's a link to the trailer build. I'm a nurse not a mechanic or fabricator - if I can build this, you can too. I had a company build to tub for the trailer.

Mini Harbor Freight (type) Trailer Ultimate Build-Up Thread | Jeep Enthusiast Forums (jeepforum.com)

So for me, a small trailer gives me the best of both worlds - I can drive my Jeep as a daily driver, and when I want to go Overlanding, I'm pretty much packed and ready to go (just add perishable foods in the cooler). Once I get my new JL, I'll probably still bring the trailer Overlanding. The JL should barely notice it is back there. My four-cylinder TJ definitely knows it is back there.

Please PM me if you have any questions about the trailer.

I saw your fantastic thread on the Jeep Forum many years ago. One day I plan to build one. Thanks for sharing your process.

 

[Tncdrew]

I like that little trailer. I saw this one for sale locally. Don't know what the cost to build today vs the cost to buy is though.

https://sanantonio.craigslist.org/tro/d/san-antonio-military-overlanding-trailer/7576396843.html

That little trailer is nice!

 

[Capt. Don]

You will find the 3.45 gears work decent as long as you stay under 34-inch tires. As you go past 34 inches, the Jeep starts to feel sluggish and it struggles holding 8th gear on anything but perfectly flat roads with a tail wind. It will also refuse to automatically hold the gear on declines.

You can’t go wrong with the Mopar lift. That’s what I got and would do it again. I needed to do some tweaking to the steering, though. The change in geometry made the steering become both twitchy and devoid of feel, and developed a pull to the right. I ended swapping the OE trackbar with a beefier Yeti unit, the OE stabilizer with a Fox 2.0 and, in my case, did the steering box TSB —which you shouldn’t have to do.

Having said that, the AEV DualSport 2.5, Dynatrac EnduroSport 2.0, and TeraFlex lifts are popular as well and cost roughly the same. I believe both AEV and TeraFlex include geometry correction brackets. Mopar includes longer control arms. Brad at Trail Recon recommends the Dynatrac as the best overall lift for combined daily driving and moderate wheeling.

Some Jeep dealers are also AEV dealers and will install the lift and warrant it.

3.45 gears = "decent." 4.56 gears and 35s = smiles for the driver and a much happier powertrain. If you have eTorque, you will wake up that system also with the 4.56 gearing. If you are going to re-gear, I would install Detroit TruTrac differentials front and rear. Limited slip front and rear all the time that you are driving. And compare the heavy duty TruTrac bevel gears versus the clutch packs on the factory limited slip in the rear. Pretty cool and just out from Eaton for our JL axles.
I second Aldo's inputs on lift kits. A stock Willys JL suspension will outperform a stock JK Willys in all meaningful vehicle dynamics. I would add though, that my son's 2012 AEVJKUR with 250.000 miles(!) has as good a ride as my 2022 High Tide/XR and I believe less twitchy steering, if I am being honest. He has a 3.5 inch AEV lift and I have 1.5 in. factory XR lift. AEV uses their 8.5x17" wheel, a half inch more than my Mopar 8x17." He is running the exact same BFG All-Terrain in 315/70 x 17 but he runs at 32 psi and I run at the factory recommended 37 psi. His AEV dual rate springs are superior. His shocks now are the silver tube bilsteins, mine the factory red Rubicon gas shock tuned for the XR package. His AEV steering geometry seems to be superior (hurts me to say this for an old lifted JKUR AEV versus a new factory lifted JLUXRHT). That is a well engineered package from AEV. And 250,000 milers from installed, that is a durable package. So Aldo's input above on the 2.5" AEV Dualsport lift is spot on, from my experience and observation. A great addition to a newer Willys.

 

[aldo98229]

3.45 gears = "decent." 4.56 gears and 35s = smiles for the driver and a much happier powertrain. If you have eTorque, you will wake up that system also with the 4.56 gearing. If you are going to re-gear, I would install Detroit TruTrac differentials front and rear. Limited slip front and rear all the time that you are driving. And compare the heavy duty TruTrac bevel gears versus the clutch packs on the factory limited slip in the rear. Pretty cool and just out from Eaton for our JL axles.
I second Aldo's inputs on lift kits. A stock Willys JL suspension will outperform a stock JK Willys in all meaningful vehicle dynamics. I would add though, that my son's 2012 AEVJKUR with 250.000 miles(!) has as good a ride as my 2022 High Tide/XR and I believe less twitchy steering, if I am being honest. He has a 3.5 inch AEV lift and I have 1.5 in. factory XR lift. AEV uses their 8.5x17" wheel, a half inch more than my Mopar 8x17." He is running the exact same BFG All-Terrain in 315/70 x 17 but he runs at 32 psi and I run at the factory recommended 37 psi. His AEV dual rate springs are superior. His shocks now are the silver tube bilsteins, mine the factory red Rubicon gas shock tuned for the XR package. His AEV steering geometry seems to be superior (hurts me to say this for an old lifted JKUR AEV versus a new factory lifted JLUXRHT). That is a well engineered package from AEV. And 250,000 milers from installed, that is a durable package. So Aldo's input above on the 2.5" AEV Dualsport lift is spot on, from my experience and observation. A great addition to a newer Willys.

?

Yeah. I have to say, based on posts on here, XR owners seem to love everything about their rig...with the exception of the suspension.

An XR with the Mopar lift would have been a totally killer package, IMO.

Having said, adding a lift is both cheaper and easier than regearing...

 

[Wabujitsu]

I’m a bit of an outlier; my mindset is a bit different, for the following reasons:

1. 30 years in the Army, retired 2018, 100% disabled.

2. We live in SW Florida.

3. We live on three acres in the country/swamps.

4. We go wheeling.

My first Jeep was a 2018 Sport JL 2.0T, auto, of course. I lifted it 3.5”, installed 35” mudders, and a winch. I could go everywhere a Rubi could go, IF I beat the hell out of my Jeep. I used the heck out of my winch and tow strap, pulling trees, stumps, and large vehicles out of ditches. I once pulled a large stuck dump truck out of a spot in my back pasture.

I tend to over-prepare, and always have throughout my career. It tends to keep folks healthier. When I could trade in the Sport, I got a 2021 Rubicon, lifted it, added bumper, winch, 35s, etc. I feel more prepared for disasters, and on the trail I don’t have to push it to the point of breakage because it’s a better machine. We are DAMN glad we had it in the aftermath of Hurricane Ian.

Base your decision on finances, use case, and mindset.

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