Power cutoff for Winch

[Wabujitsu]

It does make me wonder why only a few manufacturers include a cut-off switch and instruct its use. I do have a theory. Maybe because HF winches have a reputation for longevity, and other manufacturers figure their winch will fail before their insulation is worn through, causing a short?

Just stirring the pot a little!

Sponsored

 

[TheRaven]

Since you're making up facts and ignoring every winch manufacturer or OEM winch installed ever...

LOL no. Nice try dude but definitely no.

You really need to just walk away from this one - you are clinging to technicalities to try to save face.

It does make me wonder why only a few manufacturers include a cut-off switch and instruct its use.

The reason is simple - the vast majority of winch "manufacturers" aren't actually manufacturers. There's only a handful of companies that actually manufacture winches and VERY few of them also sell (retail) the winches they manufacture. Most winches are manufactured overseas by grey market companies that are then imported to US and rebranded, with their manuals then copied and translated from Chinese. In Warn's case their manuals all suck. I have Warn products made in China, Russia, and North Carolina, and in all cases the installation manuals are nearly useless. My made-in-NC bumper came with what may be the worst installation manual i've ever used.

Aftermarket car part companies run on razor thin margins. They aren't like automakers who have dedicated teams of people with teaching skills to write their manuals. In most cases aftermarket companies just make their engineers/designers write the manuals...and these are not people you want writing manuals.

So saying "well it's not in the manual", when it comes to aftermarket car parts, isn't saying anything at all.

 

[Zandcwhite]

LOL no. Nice try dude but definitely no.

You really need to just walk away from this one - you are clinging to technicalities to try to save face.




The reason is simple - the vast majority of winch "manufacturers" aren't actually manufacturers. There's only a handful of companies that actually manufacture winches and VERY few of them also sell (retail) the winches they manufacture. Most winches are manufactured overseas by grey market companies that are then imported to US and rebranded, with their manuals then copied and translated from Chinese. In Warn's case their manuals all suck. I have Warn products made in China, Russia, and North Carolina, and in all cases the installation manuals are nearly useless. My made-in-NC bumper came with what may be the worst installation manual i've ever used.

Aftermarket car part companies run on razor thin margins. They aren't like automakers who have dedicated teams of people with teaching skills to write their manuals. In most cases aftermarket companies just make their engineers/designers write the manuals...and these are not people you want writing manuals.

So saying "well it's not in the manual", when it comes to aftermarket car parts, isn't saying anything at all.

And those auto manufacturers that install winches...wired straight to the battery? But I'm clinging to technicalities? So you know more than the OEM auto manufacturers, the Chinese winch producers. And the resellers? Cool story.

 

[Jad4275]

And those auto manufacturers that install winches...wired straight to the battery? But I'm clinging to technicalities? So you know more than the OEM auto manufacturers, the Chinese winch producers. And the resellers? Cool story.

The above user clearly cannot comprehend how to read manuals or manufacturers instructions. They obviously rode the short bus.

 

[Zandcwhite]

The above user clearly cannot comprehend how to read manuals or manufacturers instructions. They obviously rode the short bus.

The manuals and manufacturers instruction from Warn and most other winches do not recommend a disconnect switch. A few do like the badlands from harbor freight. NONE of them recommend fuses or circuit breakers that I've ever seen. As soon as someone claims x,y,z company does I actually download and read their manual and install instructions. I've literally read a dozen winch manuals just to verify what I already know. NONE of them recommend fuses and most don't even recommend a switch period. Instead of believing anything you read on the internet, do your own research and see what those actual manufacturers put in writing?

 

[AnnDee4444]

The circuit isn't on until the winch solenoids are activated.

The circuit is live when the positive terminal is connected to the battery.


Why wouldn't you size the fuse to protect the wire?

 

[Zandcwhite]

The circuit is live when the positive terminal is connected to the battery.


Why wouldn't you size the fuse to protect the wire?

Because your winch wouldn't run? Most winches come with #2 gauge wire....rated at 130A continuous. No, that fuse won't let you pull anywhere near the full load. If I'm getting unstuck I don't care about wire heating, winch overheating to the point the motor stalls or even melting the insulation off the damn wire. It's like a fire pump install in a building. You don't size the overcurrent protection for the fla or the wire size like a normal application. You size it above the locked rotor current because you'd rather melt the wires and burn up the motor than have it trip during an emergency. RUN IT TO FAILURE. And a circuit isn't complete until it has a path to ground. Otherwise its just a hot wire not a circuit. Some DC lighting controls switch the ground wire, the circuit isn't hot and the light isn't on until the switch completes the ground path despite the 12+ wire being wired directly to the light. And for 400A you'd need 600kcmil. Good luck routing that, let alone finding ring terminals for the winch connections and battery.

 

[TheRaven]

Some DC lighting controls switch the ground wire, the circuit isn't hot and the light isn't on until the switch completes the ground path despite the 12+ wire being wired directly to the light.

Those controls and the circuits they are controlling all should be fused. I've never seen a setup that isn't.

Most electronics in automobiles work this way though - the switch simply completes the ground side of the circuit...but yeah...all fused.

Also that #2 wire is rated 130A at 75C or 90C, and that's continuous...it's plenty of capacity for a 12k winch. Again, you'd burn up the winch itself long before you fried the wire...or blew the fuse...but the power wire shorting to ground due to the insulation being pierced would snap the fuse in seconds.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Those controls and the circuits they are controlling all should be fused. I've never seen a setup that isn't.

Most electronics in automobiles work this way though - the switch simply completes the ground side of the circuit...but yeah...all fused.

Also that #2 wire is rated 130A at 75C or 90C, and that's continuous...it's plenty of capacity for a 12k winch. Again, you'd burn up the winch itself long before you fried the wire...or blew the fuse...but the power wire shorting to ground due to the insulation being pierced would snap the fuse in seconds.

Go ahead and tell yourself that a 130A fuse will allow your winch to work properly. I'm done explaining that fusing a winch doesn’t work well because the amp draw is to close to the CCA of the battery. That is why no manufactures do it period. Belive what you want, but it's simply not true. A 400A fuse likely won't trip if you bolted the hot lead to the chassis. A 130A will suffer nuisance tripping under hard use. A 300A won't protect the winch or the wiring from burning up under hard use and may or may not pop in a dead short scenario... but likely even there will have already melted the wiring. Again it's not recommended in a single manual I can find for good reason. Nobody was arguing against fusing small wires? I was pointing out that having a positive wire with no ground path is not a hot circuit.

 

[TheRaven]

Go ahead and tell yourself that a 130A fuse will allow your winch to work properly.

It will.

I'm done explaining that fusing a winch doesn’t work well because the amp draw is to close to the CCA of the battery.

You really need to study up on peak vs continuous amperage.

A 400A fuse likely won't trip if you bolted the hot lead to the chassis.

It would, in seconds.

A 130A will suffer nuisance tripping under hard use. A 300A won't protect the winch or the wiring from burning up under hard use and may or may not pop in a dead short scenario... but likely even there will have already melted the wiring.

Nope, nope, nope.

I can see that you've never seen a high amperage 12V circuit short to chassis. It's heat, not amperage that cases fuses to blow and breakers to trip. I've personally watched breakers and fuses hold 200% or more of their ratings because the amperage ramped up very slowly...so the heat could be dissipated. But the near instantaneous amperage ramp caused by a sudden 1000% increase in conductivity creates heat that cannot be dissipated fast enough, and that's what blows fuses.

So that's why Warn's recommended disconnect for their entire line of winches is only rated for 200A...and why you can find 130A and 150A fuses successfully protecting winches capable of pulling nearly 500A.

 

[Zandcwhite]

It will.



You really need to study up on peak vs continuous amperage.



It would, in seconds.



Nope, nope, nope.

I can see that you've never seen a high amperage 12V circuit short to chassis. It's heat, not amperage that cases fuses to blow and breakers to trip. I've personally watched breakers and fuses hold 200% or more of their ratings because the amperage ramped up very slowly...so the heat could be dissipated. But the near instantaneous amperage ramp caused by a sudden 1000% increase in conductivity creates heat that cannot be dissipated fast enough, and that's what blows fuses.

So that's why Warn's recommended disconnect for their entire line of winches is only rated for 200A...and why you can find 130A and 150A fuses successfully protecting winches capable of pulling nearly 500A.

Find them where? I know in years of this debate there was one guy that tried a 150A fuse, and it would blow under a hard pull. You clearly know more than every winch manufacturer and oem...
You're made up theory on slowly taking the current doesn't work with a 400A fuse. Look at the graph. It will hold 200% for a full minute. Your battery can't put out 800A. It will never blow period. Again, if you don't it is an easy test. Just stand back because the battery could vent explosively when the fuse doesn't pop.

 

[GATORB8]

Oh, thank God. I was worried everyone would forget about this thread over the weekend and that this week would be boring with no one hurling insults over a $100 safety mod.

 

[TheRaven]

Find them where? I know in years of this debate there was one guy that tried a 150A fuse, and it would blow under a hard pull. You clearly know more than every winch manufacturer and oem...
You're made up theory on slowly taking the current doesn't work with a 400A fuse. Look at the graph. It will hold 200% for a full minute. Your battery can't put out 800A. It will never blow period. Again, if you don't it is an easy test. Just stand back because the battery could vent explosively when the fuse doesn't pop.

It will hold 200% yes. But if that 200% occurs nearly instantaneously after a baseline of like 20%, it will blow well before the 200% figure is hit.

That's how current protection works.

 

[azjl#3]

It will.



You really need to study up on peak vs continuous amperage.



It would, in seconds.



Nope, nope, nope.

I can see that you've never seen a high amperage 12V circuit short to chassis. It's heat, not amperage that cases fuses to blow and breakers to trip. I've personally watched breakers and fuses hold 200% or more of their ratings because the amperage ramped up very slowly...so the heat could be dissipated. But the near instantaneous amperage ramp caused by a sudden 1000% increase in conductivity creates heat that cannot be dissipated fast enough, and that's what blows fuses.

So that's why Warn's recommended disconnect for their entire line of winches is only rated for 200A...and why you can find 130A and 150A fuses successfully protecting winches capable of pulling nearly 500A.

Where does warn recommend this?

To all who won't go without a fuse on your winch, when will you be installing a fuse on your starter motor wire? If not, why not?

 

[Zandcwhite]

It will hold 200% yes. But if that 200% occurs nearly instantaneously after a baseline of like 20%, it will blow well before the 200% figure is hit.

That's how current protection works.

The chart is very clear, I don't know why it's hard to comprehend. Instantaneous trip requires >400% of the rated current period. That works on a circuit breaker in a panel as the available fault current is usually well into the thousands of Amps. It works on a vehicles fuses up to ~150A. Beyond d that and you don't have 400% fault current available. That's how overcurrent protection works. Even to trip in a full second you need 300%. Your available fault current is only ~165% of that 400A fuse. IT WONT TRIP FOR MINUTES.

Sponsored