Death Wobble Virginity, Gone

[Krawler]

Took the Jeep in for oil service and tire rotation. They inflated my tires back up to 37psi. I did not have the wobble before this. I've taken the air pressure back down, but not able to get rid of the wobble -- which happens at ~45MPH, hitting a bump.

I know there are a million posts regarding this issue and a million different perspectives. I took the Jeep to the shop that put on the lift. They suggested I do the stabilizer recall (haven't done that yet) and then do an alignment.

Any other sound advice I should take to get the wobble taken care of?

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[quietpeen]

Just like you said there are different perspectives on this and on top of that there are many parts that can be the cause. Right off the bat a steering stabilizer is not a fix for death wobble, it just masks it. I just went though this on my jeep with 5000 miles on the odometer. I don’t know what was the cause or the actual fix because it could have been one thing or the sum of week stock components.

Back story. I added 2.5 spacer lift and replaced the front lower control arms with adjustables to fix caster, and also got a new track bar to re-center the axle. Drove for a while all was good. Swapped to new wheels and 37” tires and all seemed good and then one day I hit the right bump/hole probably close to 45 mph and got full on death wobble.

To the “fix”. I had planned on replacing my drag link and tie rod so this just bumped up the time line. I replaced the drag link and still had it. Checked torque on everything and still had it even though I found the castle nut scary loose on the drivers side lower knuckle ball joint. Rotated the tires and still had it. Got the tires road force balanced and the tech said the road force was good on them but the weight was off some. That seemed to help. Then I replaced the tie rod and the steering stabilizer because the one I had wouldn’t work with the new tie rod and now every hole that used to cause death wobble or a pretty good shimmy doesn’t cause tI at all.

Not saying its your fix but other people have fixed death wobble with replacing track bar, drag link, and tie rod with steersmarts products.

 

[JeepCares]

Took the Jeep in for oil service and tire rotation. They inflated my tires back up to 37psi. I did not have the wobble before this. I've taken the air pressure back down, but not able to get rid of the wobble -- which happens at ~45MPH, hitting a bump.

I know there are a million posts regarding this issue and a million different perspectives. I took the Jeep to the shop that put on the lift. They suggested I do the stabilizer recall (haven't done that yet) and then do an alignment.

Any other sound advice I should take to get the wobble taken care of?

This situation certainly sounds frustrating, Krawler. If you proceed with working with your dealer on this and you would like our team to provide an additional layer of assistance, we are just a private message away.

Kate
JeepCares

 

[Krawler]

Just like you said there are different perspectives on this and on top of that there are many parts that can be the cause. Right off the bat a steering stabilizer is not a fix for death wobble, it just masks it. I just went though this on my jeep with 5000 miles on the odometer. I don’t know what was the cause or the actual fix because it could have been one thing or the sum of week stock components.

Back story. I added 2.5 spacer lift and replaced the front lower control arms with adjustables to fix caster, and also got a new track bar to re-center the axle. Drove for a while all was good. Swapped to new wheels and 37” tires and all seemed good and then one day I hit the right bump/hole probably close to 45 mph and got full on death wobble.

To the “fix”. I had planned on replacing my drag link and tie rod so this just bumped up the time line. I replaced the drag link and still had it. Checked torque on everything and still had it even though I found the castle nut scary loose on the drivers side lower knuckle ball joint. Rotated the tires and still had it. Got the tires road force balanced and the tech said the road force was good on them but the weight was off some. That seemed to help. Then I replaced the tie rod and the steering stabilizer because the one I had wouldn’t work with the new tie rod and now every hole that used to cause death wobble or a pretty good shimmy doesn’t cause tI at all.

Not saying its your fix but other people have fixed death wobble with replacing track bar, drag link, and tie rod with steersmarts products.

Thanks. This is extremely helpful advice. The dealership said they couldn't get to my recall replacement until March, so I hung up the phone. I already have a Fox SS so will put that on first and then check the tire balance/alignment. But I may end up with the steersmarts setup in the not too distant future as well.

Will keep you posted on my progress as this will be hopefully another data point to help guide others.

 

[quietpeen]

Thanks. This is extremely helpful advice. The dealership said they couldn't get to my recall replacement until March, so I hung up the phone. I already have a Fox SS so will put that on first and then check the tire balance/alignment. But I may end up with the steersmarts setup in the not too distant future as well.

Will keep you posted on my progress as this will be hopefully another data point to help guide others.

Sounds like a good plan. Would love to see if the stock parts are just not stout enough if you have the same outcome as I did.

 

[AnnDee4444]

Took the Jeep in for oil service and tire rotation. They inflated my tires back up to 37psi. I did not have the wobble before this. I've taken the air pressure back down, but not able to get rid of the wobble -- which happens at ~45MPH, hitting a bump.

I know there are a million posts regarding this issue and a million different perspectives. I took the Jeep to the shop that put on the lift. They suggested I do the stabilizer recall (haven't done that yet) and then do an alignment.

Any other sound advice I should take to get the wobble taken care of?

Mine just started today, right AFTER the V41 work (new steering stabilizer).

Check this TSB for the updated track bar: https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...has-play-and-drifts.3691/page-249#post-764824

 

[Jcsieman]

This situation certainly sounds frustrating, Krawler. If you proceed with working with your dealer on this and you would like our team to provide an additional layer of assistance, we are just a private message away.

Kate
JeepCares

Kate/Jeep Cares.... I would love to hear your response to this problem! I typed this fast...as this just happened to me. I'm sure it is filled with typos and errors, but I wanted to get it all down as fast as i could before forgetting anything (even though I have much of it on video).

I recently took my Jeep in for a routine/free oil change that came with my vehicle at purchase. As they say, there is no such thing as free. On my drive home, while stopped at a light, I noticed my invoice said 6quarts of oil was used in the oil change. It stood out because my JL Wrangler only takes 5quarts. However, the old Wrangler models (before 2018) took 6qts. I also knew that having a significant overage in oil can be as harmful as not having enough oil (it impairs how well the oil circulates and creates air bubbles that acts as voids in the lubrication and cause excessive wear on engine parts). I immediately turned around and went back to the dealership for an explanation. They explained sometimes they put 6qts even though they only used 5qts. Could be some spilled, could be they needed 5qts and just ‘’some’’ of another bottle but not the whole 6th bottle. I did not buy it but when I checked the dipstick the oil (sure enough) was barely above the ‘’max’’ line. High, but not alarmingly so. It sounded fishy but since I did not pay for the oil and the dipstick was not significantly overfilled, I accepted it and went home.

Looking through old invoices, however, I noticed previous oil changes showed 6qts listed (always keep your auto service documentation). The ONLY exception was the first oil change where I specifically requested only 5qts to be used (I purchased one of the first new JL Wranglers off the line and knew they took less oil than the outgoing model, so I wanted to point that out….…. felt stupid doing it but looking back I wish I did it each time). Something about seeing the other invoices sparked a thought…… at the dealership, I had checked the dipstick after I drove over a mile (leaving and returning to the service department) which would have skewed the reading. Oil should be checked on a cold engine (per most vehicle guidance and the Jeep manual – this allows the engine to fully settle in the oil pan where the dipstick reaches). Therefore, since the oil was to the max line on a warm engine, it was reasonable to assume a cold engine read would be higher – putting my Jeep above the ‘’safe zone’’. So, I let the engine set over night and check again….dipstick showed excess oil well over the line. After letting the Jeep sit for yet another day, I confirmed…..excess oil well beyond the max line.

So, today, I schedule an appointment to have the oil drained and talk to a manager. This is actually where my story begins. Luckily I was smart enough to record myself checking the oil before I left (had not driven all day and got the dipstick level overage on video). I was mortified by my experience…. shaky mad….not angry for myself but was more angry that places like this exist and other types of people (the ‘’flight’ instinct peeps) probably fall victim all the time. I wisely recorded most of my time there and captured things I know FCA/the dealership owner would be mortified to see on video.

like when I first brought it to their attention after the oil change, they had a quick answer for every concern. I questioned just enough to poke a hole in one statement and they pulled another one out of the air as quickly as they could…… around and around we went for the next 30 mins, me in the back of the service area surrounded by a manager and several mechanics telling me I was wrong/crazy at each turn.

First they showed me the oil level was just at the max line on the dipstick, which (as they argued) proves there is only 5qts. They confidently argued everything was fine and I was paranoid. I pointed out I just drove 20 mins to the dealership at an average of 55 mph, which meant there was oil still coating various engine parts. I further explained as that oil drains it will increase the oil level reading, which would put the oil level over the safe line. They said I was wrong and explained that the hotter the engine the faster the oil drains back down to the oil pan, so therewas no more oil on the engine by the time they checked it. They, crazily argued (on video too) the longer an engine sits the lower the dipstick level reading would be, again assuring me everything was fine. I clarified, ‘’you’re saying if we check the oil right now and then check it tomorrow morning (without running the Jeep) that the oil level will show higher on the dipstick, not lower!??”. They, in unison standing around me, said ‘’Yes!”. I responded by showing them the video I had just taken before driving over. The video clearly showed what the oil level was on the cold engine read and proved it was much higher on the dipstick than the read they were getting after I drove over (100% undeniable contradiction to what they just explained). Then (without really admitting they were wrong) tried to convince me I was reading the dipstick incorrectly anyway. I proved I wasn’t and added the obvious question as to why, if there is only 5qts of oil in my engine, does the invoice say 6 qts was used(?). The manager sincerely thought it was a good response to explain, ‘’the people in the front doing the paper work don’t always know what they are doing. So, to make their jobs easier, they give them a generic code to use for oil changes…some trucks take 5, some take 6, but it is generic and does not really capture what is done in the back. He explained that the back does the oil change first and then the people upfront do the invoice after the fact (I assume to make me feel better that it was a clerical mistake and not something the mechanics actually relied on) and then assured me 5qts was put into my engine and the paper work is wrong. This was the only time I got personal in any of my responses. At first, I said I find it extremely interesting (as a CPA/Auditor) that, “you have a business process that allows your employees to invoice customers without directly correlating those charges to the actual work performed on a vehicle!”. I added (in a ‘’holy crap’’ tone), ‘’ so you’re saying the 6qts on my invoice does not match the work performed on my vehicle and you, as the service department manager, oversee a department that inaccurately invoices its customers for items they did not use or need. Are you saying the invoice given to me does not reflect the work performed…and not only are you aware of it but you’re okay with it!???” Then, I directly asked, ‘’do you realize what you are saying….are you sure you’d rather admit that’s your process instead of admitting you put the wrong oil in my engine? Which one is worse?”. After all this, the manager conceded it is ‘’possible’’ my engine has 6qts but explained, “having too much oil does not hurt the vehicle”. I offered to consult Google to verify his statement and gave him a spoiler alert that I just read A, B, C and websites X, Y, Z that say he is either lying or incompetent. He eventually agreed to drain the oil and put just 5qts in. When it was all done, he was seemingly avoiding me. I casually asked (multiple times) if I ‘’should sign something before leaving?” and he quickly said no. I then questioned more directly, ‘’every time I have work done here, I have to sign for the work performed,,” His response was, ‘’well, I’m paying for this so you don’t need the invoice.’’. I said back, ‘’ I haven’t paid for any of my oil changes here….I still get a zeroed out invoice every time. Why is this different?’’ But he ignored the comment and walked off. I then went to the customer service rep and told him, ‘’I am not going to put you in the middle of this, and probably don’t have to say too much here, but I think it is pretty obvious why I am not being asked to sign anything. I think we both know why he wants me to leave without this ever being documented. Whether it is better coming from you or coming from me, I’ll let you decide… but he should know I am not leaving here without having the work performed today documented.” The rep disappeared for a bit and came back with the manager. I explained that the well known advise is to always keep paper work for all vehicle maintenance. I have invoices showing 6qts was put in and I want invoices to show that was corrected and the proper amount was added.’’. The manager give me the most generic invoice ever. I asked him to update the wording to truly capture the work/problem. He brought back another half done invoice so I used a pen to make changes and asked him to initial next to the changes.

More concerning than the oil issue was what was discussed while the mechanics were changing the oil. By then, I had brought up the other issues I have with my vehicle that are problems. I explained I’ve attempted to have them fixed several times and, coupled with the apparent oil problem for the last year and a half, I no longer want my vehicle based and have filed a ‘’buy back’’ complaint with corporate. One of the biggest issues is my infotainment unit has had problems since I bought the Jeep, literally since day one. I explained, and showed, that I have the problems well documented on video; yet, they (the dealership) is yet to even acknowledge the problem. Instead, they keep saying ‘’could not recreate problem’’ every time I take it in for service (costing me a day off of work and a rental car ($50 plus) most times since they do not provide loaners and they only have one or two techs who can work on the head unit….and those employees only work M-F). The manager spent the whole time I was waiting trying to convince me I am wrong to think I have any recourse or that his service department has not done a good job testing my vehicle. He told me things about the lemon law and my rights as a customer that I know are 100% false. Even after I explained I was a CPA and concentrated my studies in grad school on business law, he talked at me and down to me like I was wrong about everything. He talked to me as if it was almost my fault or something. However, through his rants, almost as if to justify the lack of progress/service on fixing my infotainment problem, he foolishly admitted the explanation for why my problem has not been resolved (again, all on video). He explained, ‘’the new Wranglers have had problems with the head units since they came out. Everybody knows about it. FCA offered a program update, has lots of them, but the didn’t fix the problem [made it worse if anything]. The problem is those updates take so long to update and there are different updates for different vehicles and units, and we don’t always know which one yours needs. We have 32 different sticks for the different updates…and they each take an hour to download and an hour to work, etc. and it is very time consuming. Plus, we can have everybody have 32 sticks or be trained to do that, so we decided to just have 1 or 2, and those two aren’t here on weekends…’’. He basically admitted each time I took off work and went in, they were doing a quick guess and then moving on…. KNOWING my complaint is common and viable. He indirectly admitted they are understaffed, undertrained, and are working around an already inefficient process. Instead of truly digging to identify and resolve the problem, the spent an unrealistic amount of time “working” on it and simply marked it as ‘’could not reproduce problem’’ and moved on. After the above discussion, and after the manger reviewed my maintenance history (right in front of me) he then offered to replace my whole radio and offer me a vehicle to drive without a charge while the work was done. I told him, based on concerns for the engine due to the mistakes with the oil levels, I want to pursue a buy back instead.

He never once said sorry or showed any empathy on any level……in fact he walked off a few times and left me randomly standing there by myself in the middle of the garage (I would think is a liability….and again, on video). But perhaps the worst part, above all else that happened, is this: when he did randomly walk off a few times, I stayed in the back. One time a one of the mechanics who was overhearing a lot of our discussion (foolishly) confessed to SO much. He was nice enough, and dumb enough, to admit to me (all on video) they were never told the new Jeep Wranglers took different oil amounts than the previous models. They just changed the oil like they always had. He said they had been doing the same oil change on the new Wranglers for months and months before an email was ever sent out informing the mechanics they should have 5 qts instead of 6qts. This implies a) they do not train mechanics on new models, b) the mechanics do not reference specific vehicle information when doing oil changes…instead they appear to work from habit/memory, and c) you are truly the only quality review over what your mechanic is doing to your expensive vehicle. That mechanic went on to explain that they had done the oil one way for so long on the Wranglers, nobody really thought about whether the new ones would be different. Again, all on video. One mechanic sounded like he was hearing it for the first time (that the new Jeeps use less oil). It was surreal to hear such obvious disconnect and lack of quality control inside a dealership service department considering the new Wranglers are entering their third year of production.

Moral of the story…never trust a dealership over your gut. Always keep your documentation. Make sure you report all problems and have it documented each time you go in on a new vehicle, and you can never be too paranoid. You hear about these experiences and places, but you never think it is the one you take your vehicle to. And sadly….. maybe Jeep isn’t the best place to invest $40-50k afterall. I never had this problem with my other vehicles. I bet there could be a class action lawsuit on these oil changes and lack of training. I know I am not the only one.

 

[Krawler]

^^^ A lot to digest there... Let me get this thread back on topic.

Just got my Jeep back and so far, it already feels 1000x better. The front wheels were way out of balance (10oz off on the right side) so all the wheels were reset and balanced properly. The Fox SS is also on, so that didn't hurt. And the alignment was a bit off (I don't have the specs handy at the moment to state which specs).

Since the wobble came after the oil change and tire rotation, the out-of-balance wheels makes sense.

 

[quietpeen]

^^^ A lot to digest there... Let me get this thread back on topic.

Just got my Jeep back and so far, it already feels 1000x better. The front wheels were way out of balance (10oz off on the right side) so all the wheels were reset and balanced properly. The Fox SS is also on, so that didn't hurt. And the alignment was a bit off (I don't have the specs handy at the moment to state which specs).

Since the wobble came after the oil change and tire rotation, the out-of-balance wheels makes sense.

Nice. Hope it was the tires and all it good

 

[Krawler]

Nice. Hope it was the tires and all it good

I can confirm after driving over the weekend that the wobble is 100% gone. Zero vibration in the steering wheel. It's actually a pleasure to drive again.

 

[Halstem1]

I can confirm after driving over the weekend that the wobble is 100% gone. Zero vibration in the steering wheel. It's actually a pleasure to drive again.

so crazy that its that sensitive. I got a wobble after upgrading my drag link and tie rod. Never had it before. Still trying to figure it out. I've triple checked every bolt. Installing lower control arms next to increase caster. Will probably have the tire's re-balanced at the same time I get my alignment.

 

[Krawler]

so crazy that its that sensitive. I got a wobble after upgrading my drag link and tie rod. Never had it before. Still trying to figure it out. I've triple checked every bolt. Installing lower control arms next to increase caster. Will probably have the tire's re-balanced at the same time I get my alignment.

I'd be surprised if caster did anything to fix wobble. Mine is around 5.5 deg I believe for reference. How about your steering stabilizer? That's one other change I made.

If your tires are in the same position as they were before the change (when you didn't have wobble), odds are low that you have the same issue I had.

 

[Halstem1]

I'd be surprised if caster did anything to fix wobble. Mine is around 5.5 deg I believe for reference. How about your steering stabilizer? That's one other change I made.

If your tires are in the same position as they were before the change (when you didn't have wobble), odds are low that you have the same issue I had.

I had the stock stabilizer that I had flipped to mount with the new tire rod. Not only did I have a wobble but it also felt "light" on the front end. I did put a fox through shaft up there and it feels better for sure. But like today, the temps are up so my tire pressure is up, and I can feel it. It just wasn't there at all before. I have a track bar with 5K miles on it that I'm thinking about replacing. Adding caster can't hurt because I only have about 4.5 deg at the moment according to the alignment shop. These things are just so freaking touchy.

 

[quietpeen]

I had the stock stabilizer that I had flipped to mount with the new tire rod. Not only did I have a wobble but it also felt "light" on the front end. I did put a fox through shaft up there and it feels better for sure. But like today, the temps are up so my tire pressure is up, and I can feel it. It just wasn't there at all before. I have a track bar with 5K miles on it that I'm thinking about replacing. Adding caster can't hurt because I only have about 4.5 deg at the moment according to the alignment shop. These things are just so freaking touchy.

What track bar do you have? If it’s synergy you can replace the bushings if they are bad rather than buy a new one.

Adding caster won’t fix death wobble, but it will make it drive better. Did you check to make sure the knuckle ball joints are properly torqued? My drivers side lower one was only still on because of the cotter pin.

 

[Halstem1]

What track bar do you have? If it’s synergy you can replace the bushings if they are bad rather than buy a new one.

Adding caster won’t fix death wobble, but it will make it drive better. Did you check to make sure the knuckle ball joints are properly torqued? My drivers side lower one was only still on because of the cotter pin.

So I have a rancho track bar with about 5K miles on it. I replaced first before the synergy came out. Do you think there is a possibility that bushing is bad? Seems fast considering I haven't wheeled it since before and just daily driving to and from work. Debated spending the 275$ for a new synergy track bar just so everything matches. Feels like a waste but whatever at this point.

Stock jeep - no wobble, little wander
new track bar - no wobble, less wander
new tie rod, drag link, flipped stabilizer - Bad wobble, same wander
new alignment, retorqued everything, new stabilizer, less wobble, same wander

Ball joints are good. torqued and no movement. took cotter pins off tie rod ends and checked torque, all good. Some suggest caster can help. You don't think so? There aren't that many moving parts. so dumb.

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