Crash

[Trauma Jeep]

If the gap was indeed adequate, there would be nothing to prove.

I was stoped safely behind the car in front of me, that is until I was slammed into which pushed Into the vehicle in front.

slippery road + large SUV traveling at a high rate of speed = moving my 2DR JL. She hit me so hard that the frame has to be replaced.

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[BlackGenesis]

Deployment of SRS is not speed depended, but they are shock/force dependent. Hitting a concrete wall and a car is different.
Rear end accidents seem to only deploy seatbelts. Mine was much more severe with only seatbelt deploying.

Front, you have to hit a park car at around 25mph to deploy, or solid wall at 8mph.
Bumpers generally made to take on 5mph crash preventing any damage to the vehicle, Wrangler maybe closer to 15mph.

If you have very high deductable:
There is a service that will rebuild and recharge your seatbelt for $70.
You can clear airbag light/reset module with OBD JScan app ($20 licence) pluss OBD2 bypass wires ($20). This app also will do everything that Tazer pro does and you do not have to leave connected to the jeep to keep changes!.
Bumpers cost $100 each used.

Take your tire off to see if tailgate is damaged. Also, your hitch might have directed good amount of impact force to the rear frame. Hopefully that's not bent where hitch bolt on or frame rail between rear shock and suspension spring (crumple zone).

 

[BlackGenesis]

Its if rear frame rail is bent abit in the location circled - insurance will total it. I bought one that had rear frame rail pushed down from a rear end collision, granted had more damage to body (tailgate and quoterpanel)

 

[limeade]

If I was an attorney, I would take your criminal case pro-bono. Since you stated you were stopped, there is no way you can be held accountable for reckless driving. In all of the reckless driving statutes I have read, there is one thing in common: The car has to be in motion for there to be a driving pattern harmful to other drivers or property. I feel confident your citation will either get dismissed before the court date or you'll be found not guilty.

If you do go to court, make sure you read and completely understand the statute you were cited for. I'd even print it out and bring it with you. During the court proceeding, you need to use the language in the statute and have the citing officer testify to which elements of that statute you were violating so you can refute the elements of the crime he is accusing you of.

Without doing an imaging of the EDR (event data recorder), which every new car has and has had for many years, it is hard to determine the forces and change in forces of your vehicle. There are so many variables to cause or keep a seat belt from tightening or cause an airbag to deploy, it would take the engineers who developed the software to explain it.

Without any skid marks from the striking vehicle, there are only two ways to do a proper speed estimation.

#1: Through post crash damage analysis, an investigator can measure the damaged areas (called "crush") to determine an approximate speed. This is time consuming and not very easy and you need all vehicles involved to complete.

#2: Image all three vehicle's EDR's. When there is a change in the delta V (change in velocity), these forces are recorded on the EDR, along with throttle position, brake pedal position, percentage of braking, percentage of throttle, if seat belts were in use, air bag deployment, and many other data points. A trained and certified crash investigator can easily access this data and use this information to determine speed and other things. The data is typically recorded and locked into memory for a period of 5 seconds pre-crash and 5 seconds-post crash.

In your case there might be two events logged on your EDR. Event #1 will be when you were rear ended. If the forces were great enough, Event #2 would be logged when your front end struck the rear of the car stopped in front of you. For Event #1, you will have a pretty rapid and large change in delta v. Being at a stop, the recorder will show "0" and then the delta V will rapidly increase (show as a positive delta v since you were accelerating from a stop due to forces of the collision) when you were impacted. When you struck the vehicle in front of you and began to slow, this will register as a negative delta v since you are now rapidly decelerating due to forces of the second collision.

Now, if none of those vehicles were taken as evidence and impounded, or the EDR's weren't removed as evidence, a good defense attorney can successfully argue the EDR's aren't reliable anymore since they are in use after the crash.

What does this mean for you? The damage has been done and sounds to me the officer did a poor job on the initial investigation by citing the two vehicles which were stopped at the time of the crash. Insurance companies employ or contract with crash investigators who can and will refute any poor law enforcement investigation and will ensure the correct party is held accountable, at least civilly.

My experience is 6 years of crash investigation (law enforcement) with 2.5 years as a crash reconstructionist and certified EDR investigation.

 

[MichaelAnthony]

the main thing is no one was hurt....

 

[gqgambler]

Does anyone know the approximate speed (rear impact) which would cause the JL’s seatbelt ratcheting system to fire and lock in place (smelled like a spent round)?
My 2 door JL was rear ended by a 7 passenger SUV, who did not apply her breaks, at all. The force pushed me into the trunk of the sedan in front of me. Both the driver who hit me and I were cited per FL statute (careless driving), I’ll be fighting that. I was just wondering if anyone with crash experience could answer some questions. Thanks For what it worth my airbags did not deploy despite front impact. Post crash airbag service light came

Glad to hear that you are OK. Is there something you are looking for related to the accident with regard to speed? Speed does not equal force; the applied force (and direction of that force) is what will trigger the seat belt pretensioner. Two vehicles traveling at the same speed, but of different mass will exhibit different force upon impact.

 

[Trauma Jeep]

If I was an attorney, I would take your criminal case pro-bono. Since you stated you were stopped, there is no way you can be held accountable for reckless driving. In all of the reckless driving statutes I have read, there is one thing in common: The car has to be in motion for there to be a driving pattern harmful to other drivers or property. I feel confident your citation will either get dismissed before the court date or you'll be found not guilty.

If you do go to court, make sure you read and completely understand the statute you were cited for. I'd even print it out and bring it with you. During the court proceeding, you need to use the language in the statute and have the citing officer testify to which elements of that statute you were violating so you can refute the elements of the crime he is accusing you of.

Without doing an imaging of the EDR (event data recorder), which every new car has and has had for many years, it is hard to determine the forces and change in forces of your vehicle. There are so many variables to cause or keep a seat belt from tightening or cause an airbag to deploy, it would take the engineers who developed the software to explain it.

Without any skid marks from the striking vehicle, there are only two ways to do a proper speed estimation.

#1: Through post crash damage analysis, an investigator can measure the damaged areas (called "crush") to determine an approximate speed. This is time consuming and not very easy and you need all vehicles involved to complete.

#2: Image all three vehicle's EDR's. When there is a change in the delta V (change in velocity), these forces are recorded on the EDR, along with throttle position, brake pedal position, percentage of braking, percentage of throttle, if seat belts were in use, air bag deployment, and many other data points. A trained and certified crash investigator can easily access this data and use this information to determine speed and other things. The data is typically recorded and locked into memory for a period of 5 seconds pre-crash and 5 seconds-post crash.

In your case there might be two events logged on your EDR. Event #1 will be when you were rear ended. If the forces were great enough, Event #2 would be logged when your front end struck the rear of the car stopped in front of you. For Event #1, you will have a pretty rapid and large change in delta v. Being at a stop, the recorder will show "0" and then the delta V will rapidly increase (show as a positive delta v since you were accelerating from a stop due to forces of the collision) when you were impacted. When you struck the vehicle in front of you and began to slow, this will register as a negative delta v since you are now rapidly decelerating due to forces of the second collision.

Now, if none of those vehicles were taken as evidence and impounded, or the EDR's weren't removed as evidence, a good defense attorney can successfully argue the EDR's aren't reliable anymore since they are in use after the crash.

What does this mean for you? The damage has been done and sounds to me the officer did a poor job on the initial investigation by citing the two vehicles which were stopped at the time of the crash. Insurance companies employ or contract with crash investigators who can and will refute any poor law enforcement investigation and will ensure the correct party is held accountable, at least civilly.

My experience is 6 years of crash investigation (law enforcement) with 2.5 years as a crash reconstructionist and certified EDR investigation.

Thank you for the insight. I will definitely research the appropriate statutes.

 

[Creeker]

First of all, glad you are OK.

Some of the answers to the seat belt questions are contained in:

49 CFR § 571.209 - Standard No. 209; Seat belt assemblies.

(2) For seat belt assemblies manufactured on or after February 22, 2007 and for manufacturers opting for early compliance. A retractor shall be tested in a manner that permits the retraction force to be determined exclusive of the gravitational forces on the hardware or webbing being retracted.

(i) Retraction force: The webbing shall be extended fully from the retractor, passing over and through any hardware or other material specified in the installation instructions. While the webbing is being retracted, measure the lowest force of retraction within ±51 mm of 75 percent extension.

(ii) Gravitational locking: For a retractor sensitive to vehicle acceleration, rotate the retractor in any direction to an angle greater than 45 degrees from the angle at which it is installed in the vehicle. Apply a force to the webbing greater than the minimum force measured in S5.2(j)(2)(i) to determine compliance with S4.3(j)(2)(i)(D).

(iii) Dynamic tests: Each acceleration pulse shall be recorded using an accelerometer having a full scale range of ±10 g and processed according to the practices set forth in SAE Recommended Practice J211-1 DEC2003 (incorporated by reference, see § 571.5) Channel Frequency Class 60. The webbing shall be positioned at 75 percent extension, and the displacement shall be measured using a displacement transducer. For tests specified in S5.2(j)(2)(iii)(A) and (B), the 0.7 g acceleration pulse shall be within the acceleration-time corridor shown in Figure 8 of this standard.

(A) For a retractor sensitive to vehicle acceleration -

(1) The retractor drum's central axis shall be oriented at the angle at which it is installed in the vehicle ±0.5 degrees. Accelerate the retractor in the horizontal plane in two directions normal to each other and measure the webbing payout; and

(2) If the retractor does not meet the 45-degree tilt-lock requirement of S4.3(j)(2)(i)(D), accelerate the retractor in three directions normal to each other while the retractor drum's central axis is oriented at angles of 45, 90, 135, and 180 degrees from the angle at which it is installed in the vehicle and measure webbing payout.

(B) For a retractor sensitive to webbing withdrawal -

(1) The retractor drum's central axis shall be oriented horizontally ±0.5 degrees. Accelerate the retractor in the direction of webbing retraction and measure webbing payout; and

(2) The retractor drum's central axis is oriented at angles of 45, 90, 135, and 180 degrees to the horizontal plane. Accelerate the retractor in the direction of the webbing retraction and measure the webbing payout.

(C) A retractor that is sensitive to webbing withdrawal shall be subjected to an acceleration no greater than 0.3 g occurring within a period of the first 50 ms and sustaining an acceleration no greater than 0.3 g throughout the test, while the webbing is at 75 percent extension. Measure the webbing payout.

Additional information is contained in SAE Standards.

SAE J140—Seat Belt Hardware Test Procedure
SAE J141—SEAT BELT HARDWARE PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENTS
SAE J114—Seat Belt Assembly Webbing Abrasion Performance Requirements
SAE J339—Seat Belt Assembly Webbing Abrasion Test Procedure

Additional information on the subject can be found in
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3274245/
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2017-05-12/pdf/2017-09650.pdf

From
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/documents/tp-209-08_tag.pdf

FOR VEHICLE SENSITIVE INERTIAL ELRs (retractor sensitive to vehicle acceleration): Rotate the retractor to any angle of 15° or less from its orientation in the vehicle and test for lockup under zero acceleration loading. The ELR shall not lock when the retractor is rotated in any direction. Position the webbing at 75 percent extension. Orient the retractor drum’s central axis at the angle at which it is installed in the vehicle ±0.5 degrees. Subject the ELR to a 0.7g acceleration pulse that lies within the acceleration time corridor shown in Figure 13 in the horizontal plane in two directions normal to each other. Measure the webbing payout using a displacement transducer. The ELR must lockup before the webbing travel exceeds 25 mm

After all that, the answer to the question is it depends on the type system used in the Jeep.
It is very possible, that the threshold may be 0.7g. Of course much more information must be obtained before the question can be completely answered.

 

[sf5211]

I’m as pro police as they come but I woulda had a fit if that cop wrote me a ticket for reckless driving. First of all you weren’t “driving”. We’re taught to keep a car’s length for every 10mph when in motion but I’ve NEVER been told in any drivers ed or motor vehicle handbook to keep distance at a stop light. With this stupid logic then I guess if some dummy is driving 50mph down a side street and your car is parked without you in it you’d be responsible if he rammed your car into the one parked in front of you?
Plus, who knows now that you have this ticket if your insurance company isn’t going to use this as an excuse to not pursue the person at fault causing you to have to retain an expensive lawyer.
Sorry to ramble so much but this s**t gets me crazy. This douchey liberal society we live in nothing is anyone’s fault.
Glad your ok Noah.

 

[Trauma Jeep]

I’m as pro police as they come but I woulda had a fit if that cop wrote me a ticket for reckless driving. First of all you weren’t “driving”. We’re taught to keep a car’s length for every 10mph when in motion but I’ve NEVER been told in any drivers ed or motor vehicle handbook to keep distance at a stop light. With this stupid logic then I guess if some dummy is driving 50mph down a side street and your car is parked without you in it you’d be responsible if he rammed your car into the one parked in front of you?
Plus, who knows now that you have this ticket if your insurance company isn’t going to use this as an excuse to not pursue the person at fault causing you to have to retain an expensive lawyer.
Sorry to ramble so much but this s**t gets me crazy. This douchey liberal society we live in nothing is anyone’s fault.
Glad your ok Noah.

Thank you!

 

[Trauma Jeep]

First of all, glad you are OK.

Some of the answers to the seat belt questions are contained in:

49 CFR § 571.209 - Standard No. 209; Seat belt assemblies.

(2) For seat belt assemblies manufactured on or after February 22, 2007 and for manufacturers opting for early compliance. A retractor shall be tested in a manner that permits the retraction force to be determined exclusive of the gravitational forces on the hardware or webbing being retracted.

(i) Retraction force: The webbing shall be extended fully from the retractor, passing over and through any hardware or other material specified in the installation instructions. While the webbing is being retracted, measure the lowest force of retraction within ±51 mm of 75 percent extension.

(ii) Gravitational locking: For a retractor sensitive to vehicle acceleration, rotate the retractor in any direction to an angle greater than 45 degrees from the angle at which it is installed in the vehicle. Apply a force to the webbing greater than the minimum force measured in S5.2(j)(2)(i) to determine compliance with S4.3(j)(2)(i)(D).

(iii) Dynamic tests: Each acceleration pulse shall be recorded using an accelerometer having a full scale range of ±10 g and processed according to the practices set forth in SAE Recommended Practice J211-1 DEC2003 (incorporated by reference, see § 571.5) Channel Frequency Class 60. The webbing shall be positioned at 75 percent extension, and the displacement shall be measured using a displacement transducer. For tests specified in S5.2(j)(2)(iii)(A) and (B), the 0.7 g acceleration pulse shall be within the acceleration-time corridor shown in Figure 8 of this standard.

(A) For a retractor sensitive to vehicle acceleration -

(1) The retractor drum's central axis shall be oriented at the angle at which it is installed in the vehicle ±0.5 degrees. Accelerate the retractor in the horizontal plane in two directions normal to each other and measure the webbing payout; and

(2) If the retractor does not meet the 45-degree tilt-lock requirement of S4.3(j)(2)(i)(D), accelerate the retractor in three directions normal to each other while the retractor drum's central axis is oriented at angles of 45, 90, 135, and 180 degrees from the angle at which it is installed in the vehicle and measure webbing payout.

(B) For a retractor sensitive to webbing withdrawal -

(1) The retractor drum's central axis shall be oriented horizontally ±0.5 degrees. Accelerate the retractor in the direction of webbing retraction and measure webbing payout; and

(2) The retractor drum's central axis is oriented at angles of 45, 90, 135, and 180 degrees to the horizontal plane. Accelerate the retractor in the direction of the webbing retraction and measure the webbing payout.

(C) A retractor that is sensitive to webbing withdrawal shall be subjected to an acceleration no greater than 0.3 g occurring within a period of the first 50 ms and sustaining an acceleration no greater than 0.3 g throughout the test, while the webbing is at 75 percent extension. Measure the webbing payout.

Additional information is contained in SAE Standards.

SAE J140—Seat Belt Hardware Test Procedure
SAE J141—SEAT BELT HARDWARE PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENTS
SAE J114—Seat Belt Assembly Webbing Abrasion Performance Requirements
SAE J339—Seat Belt Assembly Webbing Abrasion Test Procedure

Additional information on the subject can be found in
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3274245/
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2017-05-12/pdf/2017-09650.pdf

From
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/documents/tp-209-08_tag.pdf

FOR VEHICLE SENSITIVE INERTIAL ELRs (retractor sensitive to vehicle acceleration): Rotate the retractor to any angle of 15° or less from its orientation in the vehicle and test for lockup under zero acceleration loading. The ELR shall not lock when the retractor is rotated in any direction. Position the webbing at 75 percent extension. Orient the retractor drum’s central axis at the angle at which it is installed in the vehicle ±0.5 degrees. Subject the ELR to a 0.7g acceleration pulse that lies within the acceleration time corridor shown in Figure 13 in the horizontal plane in two directions normal to each other. Measure the webbing payout using a displacement transducer. The ELR must lockup before the webbing travel exceeds 25 mm

After all that, the answer to the question is it depends on the type system used in the Jeep.
It is very possible, that the threshold may be 0.7g. Of course much more information must be obtained before the question can be completely answered.

Great info. Thank you sir !

 

[GreyFox]

Damn Glad you're ok (considering)

 

[Drytellsr]

I was stoped safely behind the car in front of me, that is until I was slammed into which pushed Into the vehicle in front.

OK then you should fight it in court and when the officer admits that you were stopped at the stop light when struck (Which he has no other choice but to testify that you were stopped) then the Traffic judge will realize the cops mistake. you cant be sighted for recklessness driving when, Technically your standing, a traffic term used when a vehicle is running but not in motion. You were obeying all traffic laws and traffic signals when you were struck. If you can be sighted for reckless driving while stopped at a traffic light and struck from behind then whats to stop municipalities from ticketing everyone at a stop light when an accident doesn't occur.

 

[beaups]

After all that, the answer to the question is it depends on the type system used in the Jeep.
It is very possible, that the threshold may be 0.7g. Of course much more information must be obtained before the question can be completely answered.

That's for the inertia locks. Those engage frequently while driving, as .7g is easy to hit. Nothing to do with the pretensioner firing.

 

[Adventure.AS]

I was stoped safely behind the car in front of me, that is until I was slammed into which pushed Into the vehicle in front.

Some of the questions you will need to have answers to for court:
1. How long were you at a complete stop before being struck? More than a second or two?
2. Did the driver who hit you claim to the police officer, who investigated the accident, that you weren't paying attention to traffic and you had to slam on your brakes in order to stop? If so this may be why you were also ticketed.

Witnesses (including the driver of the car you struck) will be helpful if they can help clarify these questions, otherwise it will become a 'he said, she said' in court. For example, can the driver ahead state that they were stopped for seconds and saw you stopped behind for more than a split second too?

This scenario is one reason that I have a high quality dash cam that is running 24/7. I have even considered a rear facing camera too, but mounting it in a Jeep is not as easy as in a sedan.

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