Is the JL Wrangler going to be sufficient in a crash?

[CorpCow]

Walked out the roof, and people were looking at me like I was the T1000 from T2, with cut on my head. Just wished I had not been in shock and properly responded to the "Hey you're bleeding" with the apropos "I Ain't Got Time to Bleed!"

Sorry to hear about your frightening crash but I :cwl: at this.

Was your old JKU totaled because it rolled onto its side or because of the huge impact doing structural damage? Curious how much it takes to total a Wrangler and if a roll (even without impact) automatically does it.

And on behalf of Ram owners, we apologize for your loss.

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[The Great Grape Ape]

Sorry to hear about your frightening crash but I :cwl: at this.

Actually while it was happening it wasn't even frightening, midway through the roll I was like "Hey... this isn't normal... Oh right... accident... OK passenger door about to hit the pavement... Oooff!" It felt like about 5+ seconds passed from impact to impact but the dashcam clearly shows it was only about a second at most.

Both us drivers were more concerned about each other intially and then chillaxed once we realized we were both pretty much fine... other than needing a lift home.

However I am risk averse to that intersection now, and can't listen to Blink 182's "What's My Name Again" wihout a twinge of anxiety.

Considering the Ram driver was fine and I just had two surface cuts, that admittedly bled like a stuck pig, but were healed almost overnight; then really one has to see the humour in it and thank FCA for a pretty good products.

The Ram owner and I had a beer & chatted after the traffic trial was withdrawn, and chuckled about it and our luck in the fact that we both ended up with new vehicles instead of new disabilities.

We also chuckled, in kind of a pathos way, that despite everything we were both surprised that neither of our airbags deployed.

Was your old JKU totaled because it rolled onto its side or because of the huge impact doing structural damage? Curious how much it takes to total a Wrangler and if a roll (even without impact) automatically does it.

The main issue was frame and drivetrain damage, even though when righted it didn't look at that bad. The impact was definitely the deciding factor, not the roll which just scratched the driver side paint, cracked the hardtop and fenders it was laying on and broke off the mirror.

My repair estimate from the insurance company hit about $35K and they said they were only about 2/3 - 3/4 of the way through the estimate when they wrote it off. I asked for a detailed copy of that estimate and it's somewhere. If I find it I'll post that too.

When I expressed my surprise to the estimator as I'd seen trail roll-overs fixed for much less, and realistically it didn't look that bad, or even like a write-off, he said something to the effect "I understand, but the frame and the drivetrain damage just boost the cost so quickly to fix that it's usually a write off when that happens, which is good because they never drive the same if repaired and aren't really as safe". I ended up getting about $850 less than I paid for her new 3.3 years 75,000KMs earlier.

And on behalf of Ram owners, we apologize for your loss.

Ah, it was a bit of mutual destruction, and both our faults in about a 55/45 split, and we both ended up with new vehicles, he got a Ram 3500 Dually he'd been wanting to upgrade to, and while I didn't get the JKUHR I wanted I'm happy with my refresh too, especially compared to what might have been.

In the end glad it looked worse than it was, instead of being worse than it looked.

 

[AWD]

Looks like the B pillar held up decently in these crash video of the JK. But one thing I didn't think about is look how much flying glass there is in a side impact. Window tint can probably help lessen injuries from flying glass.

Would really be nice if they added side airbag option for rear passengers. You can see the mark left on the rear door by the dummies head.

 

[Aggie]

One thing we can count on is the new cage structure will do much better in a crash involving rollover. I've never rolled my JK but the pics I've seen are scary.

 

[MockBarbecue82]

Yikes those ARE scary. The new superstructure is gonna be great.

 

[four low]

The increased protection from the new "exoskeleton" will be a deciding factor in my purchase of a JL.
The collapse of the windshield back into cabin has always been a concern, the JK is better than earlier stock Wranglers, but the JL promises to be a Life Saver.
All well and good to "look Tough", but your vehicle shouldn't kill you ...

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

All well and good to "look Tough", but your vehicle shouldn't kill you ...

The Wrangler isn't alone in that respect, they all,have situations where the roof collapses. The difference being more,Wranglers are put in those situations because they are treated like stunt cars instead of commuter vehicles, especially when they mistake the sports bar for a fully reinforced roll-cage which it isn't.

Improvements are always a good thing, but the Wrangler is not alone in this challenge, not by a long shot.

 

[F1Mark]

Offroading accidents aside and as "tough" as Wranglers are made to look, I don't see a lot of people driving them like "stunt cars" on the street (that's anecdotal of course). I think that placing the blame on the drivers is a bit of a stretch. There may be your occasional tough guy who thinks hes driving a military or monster truck, but that's really not the norm.

The problem is actually that the Wrangler was never designed to offer much protection in a rollover since the law never required it to and the fan base would rather have a completely open top. The sport bar is practically window dressing in a real accident. Sure other vehicles can suffer from collapsed roofs but it takes much more force to do so.

FCA itself says that it does not believe the Wrangler as it is currently designed would pass a roof crush test and that the Wrangler's "sports bar is not designed and engineered as a protective device, such as roll bars on some sports cars and racing vehicles."

In some twisted way it's a good thing the engine has been historically underpowered. I'd imagine a fast accelerating and more powerful vehicle wouldl only exacerbate the "tough" image and cause more accidents for the percentage of the population that drive like d-bags. You'd see a lot more of those collapsed roofs.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

Offroading accidents aside and as "tough" as Wranglers are made to look, I don't see a lot of people driving them like "stunt cars" on the street (that's anecdotal of course). I think that placing the blame on the drivers is a bit of a stretch. There may be your occasional tough guy who thinks hes driving a military or monster truck, but that's really not the norm.

Of course drivers are as much to blame, just like people ill prepared to drive sports cars or ride motorbikes increase their risks. People just don't think the same way when they just get a Wrangler, same as the 4dr sedans that can break 0-60 and 1/4 mile numbers on most 'sports cars'.
Even those previous pictures all had an off-road aspect to them. The first an off-road rollover, the other two were vehicles with larger than stock off-road tires and lifts. Again, it's more rare for it to be on road than off-road, and often from people who shouldn't be doing Hell's revenge or the various ridges, cauldrons and tubs out there, but are motivated by "Hold my beer, and watch this.." Just like people in BRZs racing/drifting in the street or pickup owner trying to pull a stump with a chain attached to their tow hitch.

The problem is actually that the Wrangler was never designed to offer much protection in a rollover since the law never required it to and the fan base would rather have a completely open top. The sport bar is practically window dressing in a real accident. Sure other vehicles can suffer from collapsed roofs but it takes much more force to do so.

They designed them to do as much as their counterparts. That there was wide discussions of this topic and regulation changes during the JKs design, it is unlikely considerations weren't made. As for how other vehicles perform, you can't even compare, you have nothing to compare it with. Would it do worse than a Kia Sportsge, you don't know, and it's not based on X force, it's based on a ratio of force to weight, so others might crush with less force and still earn a higher rating because it's lighter. Pickups also are tested in a different class than other cars, again making them similar to the Wrangler.

Also if it was a significant design flaw compared to other vehicl, then it would show as significantly different fromother vehicles in the rollover mortality rates, which is doesn't, and even there changes from year to year whereas it would be consistently alone at the top if it were an issue unique to the Wrangler.

FCA itself says that it does not believe the Wrangler as it is currently designed would pass a roof crush test

FCA never stated that. Daimler said that in 2005 about the TJ, in relationship to the new NHTSA proposed regulations that were seen as the 'Wrangler Rule' because it applied standards different to other convertibles and truck in its class. Most of their comments were directed at the clause that states vehicles should not be regulated out of existence, and that's where they play-up the Wrangler's position since the new regulation would only apply to them. Also, that was before the JK(U) arrived, so not really applicable.

Of course if you have anything with FCA specifically stating that about the JK(U), I'd love to see it.

and that the Wrangler's "sports bar is not designed and engineered as a protective device, such as roll bars on some sports cars and racing vehicles."

Which is a standard beyond all other consumer vehicles out there also, so again nothing out of the ordinary; it's also meant to reign in those who want to push the boundaries with thousands of dollars in upgrades to tires and suspension and no additonal protection.

In some twisted way it's a good thing the engine has been historically underpowered. I'd imagine a fast accelerating and more powerful vehicle wouldl only exacerbate the "tough" image and cause more accidents for the percentage of the population that drive like d-bags. You'd see a lot more of those collapsed roofs.

Or it might improve the situation by having the added weight move the centre of gravity lower and getting higher spring rate suspension. It's not like the move from the 3.8L to the 3.6L suddenly caused a rash of rolling Wranglers.

Funny how little the Samurai, Ranger, Blazer and Bronco II needed to be the rollover kings, and all it took for the Exploder was recommending underinflated tyres as the stock setup.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

Do you have any pictures to share? Pics of the damage (or lack of) might help paint a real-world picture of side impact crash-worthiness.

Still having trouble finding the cellphone pics I submitted to insurance (via usb memory) which showed a bit more detail. That was 3 phones ago since then went to iPhone, back to Samsung and on to Asus. It's on some backup somewhere, but difficult finding pics.

I did find a frontside view from the scene that I sent my family via email that kinda gives a bit more of an idea of the deformation, but if I can find the other pics it would show inside and outside of door itself.
It looks worse than it was, as it seems bowed out, but part of that was because they attached to that rollbar to get the Wrangler up on all fours again. Intrusion into the cabin was only about 2-3 inches.

Still amazes me how this amounts to over $30K in damage only about 2/3 through the estimate due to frame, etc.
Remove the doors it'd look just like most other JKUs out there on the road.

 

[Goin' Coastal]

I'm kind of hoping the line down the side means there is extra width below that to accommodate new bracing/beams going down the side.

For those that don't know it the iihs side impact sled is a mock up of the front of a Ford 150's measurements and weighs the same as an F150 since that is the top selling vehicle for years. Granted it has no crumple zone which a modern F150 would have.

JKU has a driver death rate of 21 per million units. The 2D JK rate is 34.

The overall average for all vehicles is 28. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/driver-death-rates

 

[Goin' Coastal]

With more thought to that line possibly meaning the extra width below is for more protection, the beams shown on the Safari concept would fit in that space.

 

[Goin' Coastal]

Yikes those ARE scary. The new superstructure is gonna be great.

Where would I find more details on this?

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

JKU has a driver death rate of 21 per million units. The 2D JK rate is 34.

The overall average for all vehicles is 28. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/driver-death-rates

Yeah, as I mentioned earlier it far from worst, and also switches olaces based on year, despite same design.

For 2011 if you compare that JK, it does better than the Escape, Rav4, Rogue, and worst in class another Jeep, the Patriot.

Then for 2008 the JK is second best in its class at 20, JKU is top quarter in its class at 17 (avg for akl was 48), yet it's the same vehicle feature set, if anything with less features.

Whereas the 2002 and 2004 Wranglers were well beyond the average near the bottom of the class.

Amazing how the real workd doesn't match the tests where they removed the rock rails, roof and anything else that people might actually have.

 

[Goin' Coastal]

Yeah, as I mentioned earlier it far from worst, and also switches olaces based on year, despite same design.

For 2011 if you compare that JK, it does better than the Escape, Rav4, Rogue, and worst in class another Jeep, the Patriot.

Then for 2008 the JK is second best in its class at 20, JKU is top quarter in its class at 17 (avg for akl was 48), yet it's the same vehicle feature set, if anything with less features.

Whereas the 2002 and 2004 Wranglers were well beyond the average near the bottom of the class.

Amazing how the real workd doesn't match the tests where they removed the rock rails, roof and anything else that people might actually have.

That movement is far more a product of the other cars being designed for the new tests/standards during their refresh/new model. I expect the same kind of improvement with the JL.

I would expect the 2011 numbers to be more accurate since there was nearly 5 times as many sold than the 2008(517K to 110K) for pulling those numbers from. But that does lead into 2008 was likely skewed to mostly loyal Jeep enthusiasts that were modifying them than in 2011. I'd also want to see the average age of the drivers as I would bet there were way more teenagers in the base sport model for 2011.

I'll have to find the link to the latest teen driver death rates that came out last week. It was 22/100,000 for male drivers 15-19 and 6/100,000 for female drivers of the same age group.

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