Additional HP?

Shots

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I would recommend the CAI and a cat back muffler delete, I added the Mopar CAI first and it is a noticeable increase in torque/hp ~5-10 at 4000+ rpm and a deeper growl, then I added the Flowmaster Outlaw and that added another 5-10 hp. The engine is just a air pump and removing the restrictions will help, I would recommend it and it is worth the $$$.
Check the pics, both were easy installs, the CAI is 30 min without cutting the hood.
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I assume these gains are each company's reported gains from the products, not reported from a dyno test of your actual Jeep? I'm asking because I've always wondered if you can simply add them up or if there's a net difference.
For example, if your combo nets 10-20 hp based on claimed gains (5-10 each). Do you lose some of the max gain after there was some other gain already made? Meaning you would get 7-17 instead of 10 to 20? Or as theory would suggest, one mod helps the other and you get more gains than stated. Meaning you would get 13-23 instead of 10 to 20?
I'd like to see someone with a JL actually test this stuff.

As for feeling it. It's going to be minor. I really think it's largely a placebo effect.
4336 lbs / 270 hp = 16.059 lbs/hp ← Stock (depending on options)
4336 lbs / 280 hp = 15.485 lbs/hp ← Assuming a cumulative gain of the claimed 5 hp values
4336 lbs / 290 hp = 14.951 lbs/hp ← Assuming a cumulative gain of the claimed 10 hp values

Those same ratios of 15.435 lbs/hp and 14.951 lb/hp equate to only 171 to 300 lbs of weight loss on the unmodified 270 hp engine (see math below).
270 hp x 14.951 lbs/hp = 4036 lbs
270 hp x 15.435 lbs/hp = 4167 lbs

How does it feel?
If both net 5 hp and the gains are cumulative? It's going to feel like you had an average adult female passenger exit the vehicle by adding both mods. (>20 years old 167-176 lbs).
If both net 10 hp and the gains are cumulative? It's going to feel like you had two average size 16 year old boys exit the vehicle by adding both mods. (103 to 185 averaging 144 lbs at 16 years old)

So adding an intake and exhaust feels like an average woman, or two teens got out of the Jeep? That doesn't seem like something you're really going to feel. Maybe some people are more sensitive to power gains/loss, but I'm skeptical.

I'm not calling anyone a liar. I'm just saying it may be in your head more than anything. It's a perceived gain, and as I said before if you perceive the gain, then why not do it. That is what you're after isn't it. Who cares if it really is faster or more powerful as long as it seems like it to you. My main point is to not have unrealistic expectations of what these minor mods can do for you and you'll be fine.





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DanW

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Merry Christmas to everyone! Question on more simple engine/exhaust mods. I have a 2020 2 dr Rubi w/the 6 cyl which I absolutely love. I was wondering what mods can be done to increase HP( not by a huge amount but noticeable) that would keep warranty integrity( if possible ). Thanks and be safe!
You won't get any meaningful horsepower out of it with an exhaust, CAI, or both. The companies making these things have a tiny fraction of the R&D budget that the engineering team had when designing the exhaust and intake and everything else. They also have vastly superior data collection equipment and during development they literally run a fleet of vehicles on the road and dozens of engines in labs on equipment that simulates every possible condition.

They make claims, but I've yet to see them deliver. What you will get is better sound (higly subjective, but I think it is better) and that might feel more powerful, but it really won't be.

The other thing you could do is drive on a cold day. You gain about 3hp for each 10 degrees drop in temp.

Yet another thing you can do is run premium fuel. My friend who was an original Pentastar design engineer said you gain 1 to 3hp and slight smoothness. He went into great detail as to why it is smoother, but I don't know enough to repeat it accurately. Besides that, I feel no perceptible difference in power or smoothness, so I run 87.

And if anyone tells you they gained mpg, they did it by other variables and just attribute it to the exhaust or the CAI.

Now full disclosure. I have an axle back exhaust from Magnaflow. It sounds GREAT, which is the only reason I bought it. I could see how someone would swear it has more power, but it is all in their heads. It doesn't. One other thing it did do FAR better than the factory exhaust is take trail hits. The stainless tips are thick and very strong. They've had the weight of the entire rear of the Jeep on them and shrugged it off. The factory exhaust tip would have been trashed 5 times over by now. I actually thought the Magnaflow would be more vulnerable, not less.

So what's the real difference between the cat-back, axle back, and off-road (muffler delete) exhaust? Sound. That's it.

If anyone wants to debate it, show us the dyno data. And don't use the data from the exhaust manufacturer. Get it done by an independent shop and let them do the analysis. You won't gain more than 2 to 3 hp and you might just lose some. There's a YouTube guy with a Gladiator that put an S&B CAI on his. They advertised something around 8 to 12 hp gain. He put it on a dyno before and after and actually lost 8 to 12 hp. (Yes, he drove it for over 100 miles so the computer could adapt and the loss was still there.)

It is not all about airflow. It is about how everything works together, including the tune. The factory engineers did everything possible to max this out, but in the best balance for power, efficiency, and longevity.

If you really want some hp, get a turbo or supercharger. The 3.6 can handle it surprisingly well, as it is a robust design originally intended to stand up to forced induction. Would I do it? Nope. No matter how well it was designed, it simply won't last as long as it would in its factory configuration. But it probably would last plenty long enough for most people. And from what I've read, it develops serious power, even with low boost.

Lastly, drive my JK with the 3.8 around for a couple weeks, then jump back in your JL. You'll feel like it is a muscle car! Lol!
 

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I am not exactly a tuner but I think a Mopar Cold Air Intake may help increase a little HP and may not void warranty if installed by a Jeep Dealer.

https://www.quadratec.com/p/mopar/c...MIyrWhmsnp7QIVwcqGCh1pmgkpEAQYAiABEgKeefD_BwE
It keeps the warranty but they make no specific claims for power increase. One VERY nice thing about the Mopar is that you can run a paper filter for superior filtration when you go off road. You can also easily couple it with the Mopar snorkel. The other thing that's nice is that with the vent open, it will get cooler air. But once the stock setup is rolling, it gets plenty of cool air, too. It sucks it in right through the grille and channels it to the intake, so the only time you're getting any of the hot air from the engine compartment is when sitting still, and even then, it isn't the full heat of it. But they don't bullshit about power increases like some of the aftermarket does.

I'd be very cautious of a tune, too. Other than the E85 setup, you just won't gain much for the effort.

And just my humble opinion....I would NEVER run E85. It strips oil from the cylinder walls and dramatically increases engine wear. No way around it. That comes both from my Pentastar design friend and was confirmed by friends/family who build racing engines.

The honest to goodness best answer I've seen in this thread to gain the effect of more power, and to do so noticeably, with no loss of durability or longevity and no BS, is to regear. That would get the job done, and probably then some.

Car and Driver got 6.5 0-60 out of a Sport with a six speed manual. It had the standard gearing with small tires. I'd bet that if it had 4.10 gearing from the Rubi, it would have done it in 6 flat, depending on where the shift from 1st to 2nd occurs.

If I hit a lottery or something, I'd love to buy a bare bones sport/6 speed and regear it like that. It would be a stealth pocket rocket!
 

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So adding an intake and exhaust feels like an average woman, or two teens got out of the Jeep? That doesn't seem like something you're really going to feel. Maybe some people are more sensitive to power gains/loss, but I'm skeptical.
You have a right to be skeptical. Those mods will be imperceptible except to the ear.
 

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Merry Christmas to everyone! Question on more simple engine/exhaust mods. I have a 2020 2 dr Rubi w/the 6 cyl which I absolutely love. I was wondering what mods can be done to increase HP( not by a huge amount but noticeable) that would keep warranty integrity( if possible ). Thanks and be safe!
May God have mercy on your soul after asking this question. Prepare to buy popcorn and watch some of the folks stone each other to death!
 

Shots

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LOL, typically yes. However it seems like a pretty civil/mature group here.
This is exactly how a conversation is supposed to work. Even with a difference of opinions you can talk and exchange ideas/perceptions. Maybe even understand where the other person is coming from and get something from it. Crazy how civil conversation works. Aren't we lucky to be part of a great forum where that can happen. Thanks to everyone for making this site an anomaly. :bow:
 

DanW

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LOL, typically yes. However it seems like a pretty civil/mature group here.
This is exactly how a conversation is supposed to work. Even with a difference of opinions you can talk and exchange ideas/perceptions. Maybe even understand where the other person is coming from and get something from it. Crazy how civil conversation works. Aren't we lucky to be part of a great forum where that can happen. Thanks to everyone for making this site an anomaly. :bow:
100% true. I'm on other forums, including Jeeps, where people get nuts and nobody can ever admit mistakes. This people in this forum are a breath of fresh air.

I always look at it as if we were standing around someone's man cave, face to face each with a favorite beverage and plenty to eat. Everyone is relaxed and good natured about disagreements, but recognize we are all friends with MUCH more in common than differences. It's a great group of which to be a part!

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Shots

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That's it!!! That's a great way to describe it, and is exactly how it seems to me too. I wouldn't have been able to put it into words, but you painted the picture perfectly.
 

Zandcwhite

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You won't get any meaningful horsepower out of it with an exhaust, CAI, or both. The companies making these things have a tiny fraction of the R&D budget that the engineering team had when designing the exhaust and intake and everything else. They also have vastly superior data collection equipment and during development they literally run a fleet of vehicles on the road and dozens of engines in labs on equipment that simulates every possible condition.

They make claims, but I've yet to see them deliver. What you will get is better sound (higly subjective, but I think it is better) and that might feel more powerful, but it really won't be.

The other thing you could do is drive on a cold day. You gain about 3hp for each 10 degrees drop in temp.

Yet another thing you can do is run premium fuel. My friend who was an original Pentastar design engineer said you gain 1 to 3hp and slight smoothness. He went into great detail as to why it is smoother, but I don't know enough to repeat it accurately. Besides that, I feel no perceptible difference in power or smoothness, so I run 87.

And if anyone tells you they gained mpg, they did it by other variables and just attribute it to the exhaust or the CAI.

Now full disclosure. I have an axle back exhaust from Magnaflow. It sounds GREAT, which is the only reason I bought it. I could see how someone would swear it has more power, but it is all in their heads. It doesn't. One other thing it did do FAR better than the factory exhaust is take trail hits. The stainless tips are thick and very strong. They've had the weight of the entire rear of the Jeep on them and shrugged it off. The factory exhaust tip would have been trashed 5 times over by now. I actually thought the Magnaflow would be more vulnerable, not less.

So what's the real difference between the cat-back, axle back, and off-road (muffler delete) exhaust? Sound. That's it.

If anyone wants to debate it, show us the dyno data. And don't use the data from the exhaust manufacturer. Get it done by an independent shop and let them do the analysis. You won't gain more than 2 to 3 hp and you might just lose some. There's a YouTube guy with a Gladiator that put an S&B CAI on his. They advertised something around 8 to 12 hp gain. He put it on a dyno before and after and actually lost 8 to 12 hp. (Yes, he drove it for over 100 miles so the computer could adapt and the loss was still there.)

It is not all about airflow. It is about how everything works together, including the tune. The factory engineers did everything possible to max this out, but in the best balance for power, efficiency, and longevity.

If you really want some hp, get a turbo or supercharger. The 3.6 can handle it surprisingly well, as it is a robust design originally intended to stand up to forced induction. Would I do it? Nope. No matter how well it was designed, it simply won't last as long as it would in its factory configuration. But it probably would last plenty long enough for most people. And from what I've read, it develops serious power, even with low boost.

Lastly, drive my JK with the 3.8 around for a couple weeks, then jump back in your JL. You'll feel like it is a muscle car! Lol!
So the manufacturers have the best r&d, and nothing can be improved upon? Why does porting heads make more power then? Ever look at the factory Cherokee 4.0L down pipe with the massive kink in it from the factory? They don’t spend the money on peak performance from the manufacturer ever (and definitely not on a low performance, off road oriented jeep). Mopar themselves sell a cai and free flowing exhaust. The r&d teams factor in things like cost and quiet/ comfort often times more than performance. If you want to pick up a little performance in virtually any stock vehicle, a tune is the most cost effective. Moving air in and/or out of an engine with less restriction will always help. Is it going to be night and day? Hell no. Will it even be noticeable? Maybe not, but let’s not pretend for a second that the factory parts are the pinnacle of performance engineering as they clearly aren’t. Headers for instance have been proven to add measurable power on virtually every engine, and yet manufacturers still run restrictive cast manifolds? Here’s a 3.6L with cat back, cai, tune, and a ported throttle body putting down 331whp, 317 wftlbs. The factory wrangler dynos I’ve seen are about 100hp and 90 ftlbs bellow that. If you think for a second you won’t feel 50% more horsepower, you’re high.
 

DanW

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So the manufacturers have the best r&d, and nothing can be improved upon? Why does porting heads make more power then? Ever look at the factory Cherokee 4.0L down pipe with the massive kink in it from the factory? They don’t spend the money on peak performance from the manufacturer ever (and definitely not on a low performance, off road oriented jeep). Mopar themselves sell a cai and free flowing exhaust. The r&d teams factor in things like cost and quiet/ comfort often times more than performance. If you want to pick up a little performance in virtually any stock vehicle, a tune is the most cost effective. Moving air in and/or out of an engine with less restriction will always help. Is it going to be night and day? Hell no. Will it even be noticeable? Maybe not, but let’s not pretend for a second that the factory parts are the pinnacle of performance engineering as they clearly aren’t. Headers for instance have been proven to add measurable power on virtually every engine, and yet manufacturers still run restrictive cast manifolds? Here’s a 3.6L with cat back, cai, tune, and a ported throttle body putting down 331whp, 317 wftlbs. The factory wrangler dynos I’ve seen are about 100hp and 90 ftlbs bellow that. If you think for a second you won’t feel 50% more horsepower, you’re high.
You haven't read what I said very carefully. Then you basically repeated the gist of it, as it relates to CAI or exhaust.

And we are now also going into a whole lot more modification than just a CAI or exhaust when you start talking tunes, manifolds, and such. Read the OPs original question. He's not looking to go anywhere near that level of intervention.

You yourself said the CAI might not be noticiable. What's the point if it isn't noticeable? Why spend a dime on that, other than the aesthetics of sound and looking good under the hood or rear of the Jeep? (Both are fine reasons to do it, if that's what you are after.)

Both the Pentastar design engineer AND my nephew who builds racing engines from stock Honda blocks have told me they don't think a CAI would gain more than 2 to 3 hp over stock in the same operating conditions. And the Pentastar engineer said they DID work to get all the hp they could get while meeting all objectives, including the ones you mention. He said there just isn't much left to be had through a CAI, if any, and they threw a level of engineering might and budget at it that the aftermarket just can't match. Yes, cost is one of their objectives, but so is durability and longevity.

How much did that 3.6 tune/exhaust/etc set that guy back? Bet it was significant. But again, that's FAR more than OP was asking about. And kiss the warranty goodbye with all that. And are they running E85? I'd imagine it would be to get that kind of power. As I said before, you can get lots of hp with it tuned and set up for that. But I won't put that in my engine, ever.

Oh, and one more thing. Mopar makes no specific claims of horsepower gain with either their CAI or exhaust. They made those to captialize on demand for these kinds of mods, for people who either want better sound or feel they make a difference. They are happy to take your money.

My offer to put a CAI on my Jeep and the dyno at 4 Piston Racing still stands. And they'll do a 100% independent analysis. I'd be thrilled to eat crow if it produced a noticeable gain. And I'll buy the CAI. If I had to put money on it, I'd bet the Banks would be most likely. But even they won't publish dyno numbers. I wonder why?
 
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Zandcwhite

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You haven't read what I said very carefully. Then you basically repeated the gist of it, as it relates to CAI or exhaust.

And we are now also going into a whole lot more modification than just a CAI or exhaust when you start talking tunes, manifolds, and such. Read the OPs original question. He's not looking to go anywhere near that level of intervention.

You yourself said it might not be noticiable. So I rest my case. What's the point if it isn't noticeable? Why spend a dime on that, other than the aesthetics of sound and looking good under the hood or rear of the Jeep? (Both are fine reasons to do it, if that's what you are after.)

Both the Pentastar design engineer AND my nephew who builds racing engines from stock Honda blocks have told me they don't think a CAI would gain more than 2 to 3 hp over stock in the same operating conditions. And the Pentastar engineer said they DID work to get all the hp they could get while meeting all objectives, including the ones you mention. He said there just isn't much left to be had through a CAI, if any, and they threw a level of engineering might and budget at it that the aftermarket just can't match.

How much did that 3.6 tune/exhaust/etc set that guy back? Just curious. But again, that's FAR more than OP was asking about. And kiss the warranty goodbye with all that.

Oh, and one more thing. Mopar makes no specific claims of horsepower gain with either their CAI or exhaust. They made those to captialize on demand for these kinds of mods, for people who either want better sound or feel they make a difference. They are happy to take your money.

My offer to put a CAI on my Jeep and the dyno at 4 Piston Racing still stands. And they'll do a 100% independent analysis. I'd be thrilled to eat crow if it produced a noticeable gain. And I'll buy the CAI. If I had to put money on it, I'd bet the Banks would be most likely. But even they won't publish dyno numbers. I wonder why?
Did you not read the mods list for that charger? Literally a tune, a cai, ported throttle body, and cat back. No manifolds, no internal engine work, no boost, and 80-90 more horsepower than the stock pentastar. Those are simple bolt ons that can be done in a few hours. That is exactly what the OP was asking about. And for the millionth time, bolt on mods do not void warranties. Unless the dealer can prove your mod caused the issue, you are protected by the magnusson-moss act. Being as our pc’s are locked from the factory, the tune will cost $1,000 with an extra unlocked pcm. If you are paranoid about warranty issues, swap the stock pcm back in before trips to the dealer. Literally each of those mods is simple enough to install and remove you could run them on a leased vehicle and pull them off when the lease is up. Do this many people buy Jeep’s and not modify them at all out of fear? We have the 2.0t, but we didn’t keep it stock. Had no issues getting warranty work on the steering even though it’s lifted on 37’s? Maybe my dealer is unique in understanding both the law and the fact that people modify their Jeep’s probably more than any other vehicle, or maybe some of you just worry about nothing? The only note on my paperwork regarding my mods was a disclaimer that the tpms was modified from the factory setting because I didn’t bother to restore factory settings or remove the Tazer JL before service.
 

DanW

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Did you not read the mods list for that charger? Literally a tune, a cai, ported throttle body, and cat back. No manifolds, no internal engine work, no boost, and 80-90 more horsepower than the stock pentastar. Those are simple bolt ons that can be done in a few hours. That is exactly what the OP was asking about. And for the millionth time, bolt on mods do not void warranties. Unless the dealer can prove your mod caused the issue, you are protected by the magnusson-moss act. Being as our pc’s are locked from the factory, the tune will cost $1,000 with an extra unlocked pcm. If you are paranoid about warranty issues, swap the stock pcm back in before trips to the dealer. Literally each of those mods is simple enough to install and remove you could run them on a leased vehicle and pull them off when the lease is up. Do this many people buy Jeep’s and not modify them at all out of fear? We have the 2.0t, but we didn’t keep it stock. Had no issues getting warranty work on the steering even though it’s lifted on 37’s? Maybe my dealer is unique in understanding both the law and the fact that people modify their Jeep’s probably more than any other vehicle, or maybe some of you just worry about nothing? The only note on my paperwork regarding my mods was a disclaimer that the tpms was modified from the factory setting because I didn’t bother to restore factory settings or remove the Tazer JL before service.
Ok, how much $$$? And does the tune include E85?

And Magnusson Moss is great on paper. You'll have to have deep pockets to challenge them on that if you have an engine issue. I've not run into anyone with success in that arena.

My dealer is like yours in that they have not made issue of lifts and tires, even on my JK which has an AEV lift. But that's not the same as engine mods, especially a tune.

Call me skeptical of 100hp gain at the wheels with the few mods you mentioned. I'd have to see it to believe it. And I can't read the dyno screen. He's also saying the company that did the throttle body porting doesn't do it anymore. Why? I'm betting there is more to it than what is claimed, if he did indeed get to that whp. I still suspect E85, for one.

I need much more than that Youtube video to believe it. If it is so, then are you planning on doing this to your Jeep? I'd be more willing to believe it if the example you show was first hand and not off Youtube.

But if someone gains 60 or so whp in a Wrangler with just a tune, exhaust, CAI, and Throttle body tweek, and without E85, I'd love to see it. Until then, I'm hyper skeptical.

And as you know, there is MUCH more drive train drag in a Wrangler than a Challenger. So no shock that whp would be a lot less. Heck, it'd be a lot less than the 263 that guy claims as baseline.
 
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Assuming the main benefit of a cold air intake is sound, has anyone ever tried removing or bypassing the helmholtz resonator on the stock intake? I did this on another car, and was much happier with the results when compared to an aftermarket CAI. OEM quality with a slightly louder intake sound.
 

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Ok, how much $$$? And does the tune include E85?

And Magnusson Moss is great on paper. You'll have to have deep pockets to challenge them on that if you have an engine issue. I've not run into anyone with success in that arena.

My dealer is like yours in that they have not made issue of lifts and tires, even on my JK which has an AEV lift. But that's not the same as engine mods, especially a tune.

Call me skeptical of 100hp gain at the wheels with the few mods you mentioned. I'd have to see it to believe it. And I can't read the dyno screen. He's also saying the company that did the throttle body porting doesn't do it anymore. Why? I'm betting there is more to it than what is claimed, if he did indeed get to that whp. I still suspect E85, for one.

I need much more than that Youtube video to believe it. If it is so, then are you planning on doing this to your Jeep? I'd be more willing to believe it if the example you show was first hand and not off Youtube.

But if someone gains 60 or so whp in a Wrangler with just a tune, exhaust, CAI, and Throttle body tweek, and without E85, I'd love to see it. Until then, I'm hyper skeptical.

And as you know, there is MUCH more drive train drag in a Wrangler than a Challenger. So no shock that whp would be a lot less. Heck, it'd be a lot less than the 263 that guy claims as baseline.
Our jl is a 2.0t, so even when I tune it the comparison wouldn't be relevant. I'm not trying to build a race car out of the jeep, the biggest benefit I see of the tunes that are finally out now is they get rid of the factory horsepower cutting in 4 low.
 

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Assuming the main benefit of a cold air intake is sound, has anyone ever tried removing or bypassing the helmholtz resonator on the stock intake? I did this on another car, and was much happier with the results when compared to an aftermarket CAI. OEM quality with a slightly louder intake sound.
Interesting question. I know some CAIs have them and some don't. I'd be curious about the sound, too. I know Banks included one on their design. I'm guessing there must be some annoying or unpleasant sound without it, but that's all subjective.
 

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