Sponsored

Willys vs Rubicon vs 4 runner

aldo98229

Well-Known Member
First Name
Aldo
Joined
Nov 16, 2019
Threads
86
Messages
11,019
Reaction score
27,683
Location
Bellingham, WA
Vehicle(s)
2023 Jeep Gladiator, 2018 Fiat 124 Spider
Occupation
Market Research
Vehicle Showcase
3
In my fleet, a couple that may help answer the question

2020 JLR 2-Door with M/T with RK 3.5" lift and 37's plus a bunch of other goodies
2021 Tacoma Off-Road with M/T (somewhat similar to 4-Runner)

Tacoma:
  • Better ride than a JLR.
  • Reliability is well known
  • Not as much fun.
  • No Jeep "Wave"
  • Much more work to go 35's or bigger
  • Atrocious automatic transmission. It is unbelievable how bad the calibration on it is
  • Uncomfortable seats. The front seats are too close to the floor and too far from the steering wheel to find actruly comfortable position. The rear seat is quite cramped
  • The 3.5 V6 is so-so. It runs out of breath a bit early
  • Very well built and assembled
  • Toyota builds excellent value for money into every Tacoma it sells; much better than Jeep does with Wrangler.
  • Amazing resale; as good as Wrangler’s
Jeep:
Anyway, best wishes going fwd.
As a former 2019 Tacoma TRD Off-Road owners, I added a couple items in red.
Sponsored

 

Ridgway Jeeper

Well-Known Member
First Name
Frank
Joined
Jun 24, 2021
Threads
2
Messages
475
Reaction score
882
Location
Ridgway, CO
Vehicle(s)
2021 JLR
Occupation
Real Estate Agent
I understand. But as you said the Willys is a special edition model. So it definitely should come standard with AC and l the power amenities without costing more. I like the Willys but I think Jeep can make it better for their customers. If I'm going to pay extra for a special edition I'd like to see power everything standard and a rear Locker instead of a throw away LSD that eventually eats itself down the road and better gearing then the crappy 3.43s.

If Jeep was smart they would make the Willys competition for the Black Diamond Bronco model which comes standard with a lot of good stuff. Power everything, washout water proof interior, rear Lockers, 4.46 rear axle, Auxiliary switches, ect ect.. Especially since the Willys is like a rough and tough military throw back model.

I don't know I'm not trying to turn this into a Jeep vs Bronco rant. I would just like to see Jeep make something I like better. I would actually buy a Willys if they made these changes for 2022 because I love the styling of the Willys.
If I use Fords build and price to build a Black Diamond similarly optioned to my fairly basic Rubicon, the price is within a couple hundred dollars. The Ford would have a turbo four instead of a N/A V6. It would have rubber seats which have zero appeal to me in a daily driver and it lacks the ability to fit 35" tires with zero mods and, lacks a front locker, swaybar disconnect, 4:1 t-case etc...

As mentioned earlier, the basic Rubicon is the value leader if you intend to use it off road, period. Buying a Willy's for "the looks" seems crazy to me. Buy the capability from the factory, changes the looks after the fact...
 

entropy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Threads
83
Messages
4,318
Reaction score
7,442
Location
Foothills of the San Gabriels
Vehicle(s)
Jeep Wrangler Sport S JL 2-D
Build Thread
Link
Occupation
Professional dancer/male stripper
If I use Fords build and price to build a Black Diamond similarly optioned to my fairly basic Rubicon, the price is within a couple hundred dollars. The Ford would have a turbo four instead of a N/A V6. It would have rubber seats which have zero appeal to me in a daily driver and it lacks the ability to fit 35" tires with zero mods and, lacks a front locker, swaybar disconnect, 4:1 t-case etc...

As mentioned earlier, the basic Rubicon is the value leader if you intend to use it off road, period. Buying a Willy's for "the looks" seems crazy to me. Buy the capability from the factory, changes the looks after the fact...
Rubicon has always been the best value for offroad. Until an alternative came out and thats the Willys sport. Not the Willys. The Willys is a great value for those who dont need lockers but want the creature comforts of the sport S.
 

Ridgway Jeeper

Well-Known Member
First Name
Frank
Joined
Jun 24, 2021
Threads
2
Messages
475
Reaction score
882
Location
Ridgway, CO
Vehicle(s)
2021 JLR
Occupation
Real Estate Agent
Rubicon has always been the best value for offroad. Until an alternative came out and thats the Willys sport. Not the Willys. The Willys is a great value for those who dont need lockers but want the creature comforts of the sport S.
I think it is INSANE that Jeep offers 14 trim levels, 13 really since the RHD isn't really on anybody's radar... Equally as crazy that only two of them had ANY appeal to me, the Rubi and the 392 Rubi.

I can't find one in the Bronco line up that checks the boxes I want, period and Toyota also has zero appeal to me. So I guess at least Jeep had something I could order that I was pleased with :clap:
 

zrickety

Banned
Banned
Banned
Joined
Aug 7, 2020
Threads
20
Messages
1,549
Reaction score
1,840
Location
USA
Vehicle(s)
2020 Rubicon 2DR 3.6L 6MT, VW 2.0T
Build Thread
Link
Occupation
Technician
Ok , some background …
I’ve had current gen 4 runner 1 JKR 2 JLRs and 1 JLUR and I just ordered my wife a 392 JLUR XR…. So I’m very familiar with the Rubicon.

is a Willys comparable to a 4 runner in capability more so than a rubicon ?

I always come back to a jeep and really like the product .
Only thing is I do basic trails and don’t care to rock climb or do anything too difficult or technical . Most technical thing might be like black bear pass or something….

It’s more of a daily and once every 2 month off-roader …
Would a Willys fulfill 90 percent of what I want ?



im Looking to stay more on the budget side since im about to buy the 83k rubicon for my wife…

Thanks !
Yes, the Willys will do what you want. I love the idea of the 392, but I'm a cheapskate. I would buy 2 Rubicons in it's place, leave one stock and go nuts with the other. And also buy the Willys.
But that's me!
 

Sponsored

aldo98229

Well-Known Member
First Name
Aldo
Joined
Nov 16, 2019
Threads
86
Messages
11,019
Reaction score
27,683
Location
Bellingham, WA
Vehicle(s)
2023 Jeep Gladiator, 2018 Fiat 124 Spider
Occupation
Market Research
Vehicle Showcase
3
If Jeep is afraid to offer lockers across non-Rubicon models because it might dilute the Rubicon sub-brand, then it should add a “Rubicon Sport” that offers the off-road goodies at a more affordable price point.

The current setup by which we have to step into a Rubicon just for the lockers might work for greedy FCA, but not for the average off-roader.
 

johnnyj

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Threads
10
Messages
215
Reaction score
446
Location
Washington
Vehicle(s)
Jeepless but still a fan.
I'm honestly okay with the Rubicon trim as it is - that's bias of course since I've owned 3 (two TJ's and one JL) but the selling point for me beyond the obvious lockers was the twin Dana44s and the upgraded transfer case/electronic sway bar discos. I doubt jeep would create a Rubi "sport" model with just those, but without things like the power locks/climate control and be able to offer it much cheaper given the market. Not saying it wouldn't be cool, just sayin if ya subtracted just the off road stuff, the remaining value difference is pretty small.
 

The Last Cowboy

Well-Known Member
First Name
Joe
Joined
Jul 2, 2020
Threads
23
Messages
5,433
Reaction score
10,642
Location
San Antonio, TX
Vehicle(s)
2020 JL Willys 2 door
Occupation
Wandering Vaquero
If you're not in a mountainous area, where trails have steep climbs and large, loose rocks or you don't go to dedicated off road parks, a Rubicon is not needed. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of Rubicon owners will never put the transfer case in 4hi, much less 4low. For those of you here that use yours, I get it.

But the OP clearly stated that he does not intend to use his Jeep for anything more difficult than Black Bear. A stock 2 door Willys will be fine there.

As for the Willys equipment argument. Jeep did a stupid thing with the naming and marketing of this package. Willys is the high end model and comes with AC, power windows/locks and LED head/fog lights. The Willys Sport is the base model with roll up windows, no AC and halogen lights. They both come with the same blacked out trim, 32" MTs and black Rubicon wheels, Rubicon shocks, upgraded brakes and a D44/M220 limited slip rear axle. The Willys should be factory equipped with an E-locker in the rear and and open D44 up front and at least 3.73s or it would be nice if those were options.

My JK was an almost optionless Sport. I ordered it with AC, 3.73s, rear LS D44 and a hardtop. The day after I bought it I took it up a steep, lose gravel trail with small rocks with those tiny, skinny 30" all season tires and was shocked at how well it did. A few weeks latter I had a brand new set of Rubicon take offs on it and it never failed me here in the Texas Hill Country and on the beach. A Rubicon in my area is kinda pointless. I wouldn't say a waste, some people have access to big ranches with some difficult trails and some go to Hidden Falls and can pick the tough lines. Hell, I've seen posts here from people who bought a Rubicon for the stickers, hood, red dash on tow hooks.
 

aldo98229

Well-Known Member
First Name
Aldo
Joined
Nov 16, 2019
Threads
86
Messages
11,019
Reaction score
27,683
Location
Bellingham, WA
Vehicle(s)
2023 Jeep Gladiator, 2018 Fiat 124 Spider
Occupation
Market Research
Vehicle Showcase
3

The Last Cowboy

Well-Known Member
First Name
Joe
Joined
Jul 2, 2020
Threads
23
Messages
5,433
Reaction score
10,642
Location
San Antonio, TX
Vehicle(s)
2020 JL Willys 2 door
Occupation
Wandering Vaquero
:surprised: Is there any other reason...? 😫
I've seen people damn near melt down in some threads where someone wanted to switch out those red dash panels, remove decals or other red trim. One went so far as to say that the red trim and dash was the whole point of a Rubicon. Just gotta shake my head at some of the stuff I read.
 

Sponsored

Ridgway Jeeper

Well-Known Member
First Name
Frank
Joined
Jun 24, 2021
Threads
2
Messages
475
Reaction score
882
Location
Ridgway, CO
Vehicle(s)
2021 JLR
Occupation
Real Estate Agent
If Jeep is afraid to offer lockers across non-Rubicon models because it might dilute the Rubicon sub-brand, then it should add a “Rubicon Sport” that offers the off-road goodies at a more affordable price point.

The current setup by which we have to step into a Rubicon just for the lockers might work for greedy FCA, but not for the average off-roader.
So you think a $5000 premium from a Sport S to a Rubicon is profiteering by FCA? You get a laundry list of upgrades for that money and there is no way you could do it for less after the fact.

You continually make this claim that FCA is "killing it" profit wise with the Rubicon package but I just do not see how you can make that claim. My Rubicon with the cold weather package, hard top and tow package was $43k. The similarly optioned Sport S would probably come in at $38k. you can not add heavier axles with lockers, different transfer case, electric sway bar disconnect, larger tires, different fenders, suspension lift for that kind of money.

Now if they built all wranglers with these things they would benefit from economies of scale but ALL of the changes cost money. Tell me again how they are making a bunch of extra money on Rubicons?
 

gato

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2021
Threads
20
Messages
1,251
Reaction score
1,938
Location
New England
Vehicle(s)
2021 JLUR
I agree with the post above. A basic, no options Rubicon is an incredible value.

It is insanely capable out of the box, easy to upgrade with the high clearance fenders, etc, and it is the icon for the brand - it also looks great.

Rubicon's only become expensive when people, like me, start loading them up with options (Auto transmission, leather, hard top, cold weather package, heavy duty rock rails, steel bumpers, CV front axle/4WD-Auto, alpine, etc. But then again, those would load up the costs on any trim.

It sucks that I paid $57K for my Rubicon. But I feel Jeep gave me the choice on how much to spend.

In fact, if anything, I want Jeep to add a Rubicon 37 option, just like Ford did for the Raptor. I'd pay any sum to get that from the factory and not have to deal with dealer warranty BS.
 
Last edited:

aldo98229

Well-Known Member
First Name
Aldo
Joined
Nov 16, 2019
Threads
86
Messages
11,019
Reaction score
27,683
Location
Bellingham, WA
Vehicle(s)
2023 Jeep Gladiator, 2018 Fiat 124 Spider
Occupation
Market Research
Vehicle Showcase
3
I think we are confusing two different things:
  1. Yes, Rubicon offers incredible value when you consider the hardware you gain for an additional $4,000: front and rear D44 axles with lockers, swaybar disconnect, 4:1 transfer case, etc.
  2. However, Rubicon, or any Wrangler for that matter, offers little actual content for the money. Things like LEDs, leather, navigation, heated seats, etc., are all standard on vehicles costing $35,000 to $40,000. You need to pay $60,000 to get them on Rubicon.
Sure, the removable hardtop and Wrangler’s “image” are worth it to some. But that still doesn’t mean that Rubicon is an “incredible value.” The only reason Jeep has gotten away with shortchanging buyers is because Wrangler hasn’t had a direct competitor for a long time.
 

zrickety

Banned
Banned
Banned
Joined
Aug 7, 2020
Threads
20
Messages
1,549
Reaction score
1,840
Location
USA
Vehicle(s)
2020 Rubicon 2DR 3.6L 6MT, VW 2.0T
Build Thread
Link
Occupation
Technician
I agree with the post above. A basic, not options Rubicon is an incredible value.

It is insanely capable out of the box, easy to upgrade with the high clearance fenders, etc, and it is the icon for the brand - it also looks great.

Rubicon's only become expensive when people, like me, start loading them up with options (Auto transmission, leather, hard top, cold weather package, heavy duty rock rails, steel bumpers, CV front axle/4WD-Auto, alpine, etc. But then again, those would load up the costs on any trim.

It sucks that I paid $57K for my Rubicon. But I feel Jeep gave me the choice on how much to spend.

In fact, if anything, I want Jeep to add a Rubicon 37 option, just like Ford did for the Raptor. I'd pay any sum to get that from the factory and not have to deal with dealer warranty BS.
100%. I know people with Sports that paid more than I did for a Rubicon. Deals abound.
Sponsored

 
 



Top