Driving a Rubicon in the Snow

[Ratbert]

On my Challenger, ABS and ESP(TC) were separated. The ESP would prematurely wear out the rear brakes unless driving like a grandpa around corners. I turned it off every time I got in the car after my first rear brake change at 40k.

I'm having a hard time figuring out how that's related to stopping our Jeeps in snowy conditions.

Accelerating has never been as much of a concern for me as trying to stop. It's pretty damn frightening to lose traction while slowing down for an intersection. About the only thing to do is lay your hand on your horn and try not to shit your pants. Yeah, been there, done that when driving extremely slowly, but down hill.

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[UncleJimmy]

On my Challenger, ABS and ESP(TC) were separated. The ESP would prematurely wear out the rear brakes unless driving like a grandpa around corners. I turned it off every time I got in the car after my first rear brake change at 40k.

Makes sense especially for a Challenger.

My experience has been more of a concern when turning it curves in the road. I was in passenger in YJ making a left turn going skiing. Hit black ice and did full 360. Luckily we didn’t hit anything or roll.

With my JL we have lots of black ice and curves. Several times I have had the rear end want to swing out. I could manage it my own by lifting off the throttle, avoiding brakes and keeping the steering steady but the Jeep computers sense it before I do in the drivers seat and cut throttle before I can react. For experienced and inexperienced drivers alike it adds a huge safety margin. Off road though if you are trying to spin the wheels to get traction then yes disable it.

 

[Dusty Dude]

I'm having a hard time figuring out how that's related to stopping our Jeeps in snowy conditions.

Accelerating has never been as much of a concern for me as trying to stop. It's pretty damn frightening to lose traction while slowing down for an intersection. About the only thing to do is lay your hand on your horn and try not to shit your pants. Yeah, been there, done that when driving extremely slowly, but down hill.

I agree completely. The time to learn that road conditions suck is during acceleration, not braking. Been there a time or two myself, laying on the horn and hoping for the best.

If the Jeep TC is the same as the Challenger ESP, then it is active on dry pavement when accelerating/going around corners the same as being on snow in bad conditions.

If you (not you specifically) have the ESP system off, hit the gas too hard, and lose traction, you know right away that you need to slow down and increase your stopping distances. If the TC system is on, it will cut the throttle slightly without you knowing it, and/or activate the rear brakes slightly to maintain traction while accelerating/cornering. If you aren’t paying close attention, the system masks over the fact that you should be slowing down and increasing your stopping distance. Most people aren’t that attentive, and as a result drive too fast for conditions.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[gdeyarmond]

I'll jump in here...maybe it's been said, maybe it hasn't, but there always seems to be confusion on California's chain laws. In California, your tires need this little icon

to avoid using chains in chain control R1 and R2, last I checked, Ridge Grapplers are not 3PMSF rated. Once they set chain control R3, you HAVE to use them. For a 4WD vehicle, they go in the rear.

From Caltrans -
During the winter months, motorists may encounter traction chain controls in the mountain areas within California. When chain controls are established, signs will be posted along the road indicating the type of requirement. There are Three Levels of Chain Requirements in California:

• Requirement 1 (R-1): Chains are required on all vehicles except passenger vehicles and light-duty trucks under 6,000 pounds gross weight and equipped with snow tires on at least two drive wheels. Chains must be carried by vehicles using snow tires. All vehicles towing trailers must have chains on one drive axle. Trailers with brakes must have chains on at least one axle.
• Requirement 2 (R2): Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles except four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicles with snow-tread tires on all four wheels.
  NOTE: (Four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicles must carry traction devices in chain control areas.)
• Requirement 3 (R3): Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles, no exceptions.

 

[zouch]

i think you’re confusing 3PMS with M+S (Mud and Snow) markings.
Calif law is only looking for M+S rating.

personally, in my time playing in the Sierra i’ve never seen the CHP go to R3; if it’s that bad, they just close the road.
(i’m not likely to want to be where they require Joe Average Motorist to have chains on their 4WD anyway.)

i’ve never *needed* chains in my 4WDs or AWDs though i have used them (only on the rear). i would prefer to have my grip on the rear if i need it while braking rather than have it on the front and spinning the vehicle if i hit the brakes.

if i were to need to use chains on all 4 on a 4WD vehicle i would be careful to not use the’ ladder’ pattern style, as i wouldn’t want to put the Transfer Case under the strain caused by the individual tires rolling over the ‘rungs’ of the chains.

I'll jump in here...maybe it's been said, maybe it hasn't, but there always seems to be confusion on California's chain laws. In California, your tires need this little icon

to avoid using chains in chain control R1 and R2, last I checked, Ridge Grapplers are not 3PMSF rated. Once they set chain control R3, you HAVE to use them. For a 4WD vehicle, they go in the rear.

From Caltrans -
During the winter months, motorists may encounter traction chain controls in the mountain areas within California. When chain controls are established, signs will be posted along the road indicating the type of requirement. There are Three Levels of Chain Requirements in California:

• Requirement 1 (R-1): Chains are required on all vehicles except passenger vehicles and light-duty trucks under 6,000 pounds gross weight and equipped with snow tires on at least two drive wheels. Chains must be carried by vehicles using snow tires. All vehicles towing trailers must have chains on one drive axle. Trailers with brakes must have chains on at least one axle.
• Requirement 2 (R2): Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles except four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicles with snow-tread tires on all four wheels.
  NOTE: (Four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicles must carry traction devices in chain control areas.)
• Requirement 3 (R3): Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles, no exceptions.

 

[FrontRange575]

Just an additional comment. I have been driving 4x4 vehicles in and around Colorado since the 80's. I agree with alot of what has already been said. 4 wheel drive is great for going forward in snowy conditions, but you have to know how to slow down and stop. In 4 high the extra axle turning does help in deceleration, not stopping. Anyways.

Finally spent a good week over the Holidays on the MT Baja Boss A/T tires with 3 feet of snow in the mountains in a week (Not Tahoe or Big Bear dump, but big for Summit County). I drove in every condition from side road axle deep to 3-6 inch on side roads and heavy snow/ slush on main roads. The Mickey Thompsons were awesome. The 392 4High Auto does take some getting used to, but handles most mixed conditions well. Did use 4High Part-time several times and that is the feeling I am used to from my previous Jeep JKU Rubicon/X.

The MT Baja Boss A/T are snow rated:

• Severe Snow Service Rated with the 3PMS Symbol certifies that all sizes 12.50 (315) and narrower are severe snow rated
• The 37's are 12.5 wide and have the 3PMS Symbol

 

[DarthAWM]

Side note, if I recall correctly chains is a no no from an owners manual / warranty perspective. That said, I’d rather have chains to use than be stranded.

I’ve always found wranglers to be marginal in the snow. The combination of light weight and generally wider tires makes then slip and slide easily.

4800lbs is light weight?

 

[Heimkehr]

4800lbs is light weight?

There's a wide variety of trims and builds, and by extension, actual vehicle weights, in the Wrangler universe.

 

[DarthAWM]

There's a wide variety of trims and builds, and by extension, actual vehicle weights, in the Wrangler universe.

That world isn't really that wide considering this is a forum for JL Wranglers. Yeah, YJ's are way different in weight as are TJ's and LJ's but the Sport 2dr isn't that far off my number at at curb weight just over 4000lbs(yes I looked this up). Modern jeeps are not light weights by any means or measure

 

[Ratbert]

4800lbs is light weight?

That's pretty light in comparison to mine at well over 6k. Not light like my Miata was, but it's all relative.

 

[LostNotStuck-Yet]

Jeep” and in words of doc holiday i thought to myself why your no daisy no daisy at all You are a razor on tracks until that moment i did not know such a thing existed

sorry, you lost me. I have no idea what your saying?

He was saying that despite his inability to keep going he wasn’t a poorly prepared unskilled snow wimp. The reason he couldn’t continue on despite following others tracks was that the tracks were made by a Polaris RZR running tracks instead of tires. RZRs on tracks get stuck too but it takes wallowing snow to make that happen.

He probably could have kept up if he was running tracks too however a RZR on tracks can almost certainly out float a JL on tracks due to the weight difference.

 

[Zandcwhite]

i think you’re confusing 3PMS with M+S (Mud and Snow) markings.
Calif law is only looking for M+S rating.

personally, in my time playing in the Sierra i’ve never seen the CHP go to R3; if it’s that bad, they just close the road.
(i’m not likely to want to be where they require Joe Average Motorist to have chains on their 4WD anyway.)

i’ve never *needed* chains in my 4WDs or AWDs though i have used them (only on the rear). i would prefer to have my grip on the rear if i need it while braking rather than have it on the front and spinning the vehicle if i hit the brakes.

if i were to need to use chains on all 4 on a 4WD vehicle i would be careful to not use the’ ladder’ pattern style, as i wouldn’t want to put the Transfer Case under the strain caused by the individual tires rolling over the ‘rungs’ of the chains.

You beat me to it as I was just about to type the same exact reply. Nowhere in the law does it mention a 3 peak rating. Any AT, MT, or RT and you won't get a second glance from the CHP. Grew up in the foothills and I've never seen R3 in effect. I've never owned, carried, or used chains in a Jeep. Can you even get them for 39s? Nobody chains up for snow wheeling, if its dumping too hard for the plows to keep up at R1 or R2 the highways getting closed and we are in the deep powder on back roads if we are still trying to get somewhere or just feel like playing in the snow. Even if the CHP decided it's R3 conditions at that point, the expedition isn't making it out to try and ticket me.

 

[Heimkehr]

A blend of snow and sleet make current driving conditions more challenging in areas than they appear. The studded Generals aquitted themselves very well.

It's continuing to come down, and there's at least two more accumulation events in the current week's forecast.

Reporting to you live from Happytown.

 

[Phrank]

A blend of snow and sleet make current driving conditions more challenging in areas than they appear. The studded Generals aquitted themselves very well.

It's continuing to come down, and there's at least two more accumulation events in the current week's forecast.

Reporting to you live from Happytown.

Be safe, my neighbor (slightly) to the south. No sleet up here, just some light snow thus far.

 

[Tredsdert]

There's different types of mud, there's different types of snow, there's even different types of ice (if you want to get technical).

Know your tires and what their strengths are; know the surface you're driving on and what kind of snow/ice is in your area, per storm and in the days which follow how the snow/ice changes are conditions change.

Don't be afraid to pull over, get out and walk it a little bit! If it's more risk then you're willing to take, don't feel the need to take it! You're not proving anything if you get stuck, in an accident, or have to be yanked out of the ditch/backcountry.

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