0w20 more engine wear?

[Willys41]

I just ordered with positive put positive positive is a good idea
What most people don't understand is the thermostat starts to open at 188/190 degrees
There is absolutely NO reason or benefit to be running these motors as hot as 235 degrees.

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[azjl#3]

I cant talk about today's oils put I do know that back in my race car days late 1970 and 80 in my 350 Chey running Valvoline oil gave me 5psi more oil pressure compared to other oils we tried
From that point I have always used Valvoline in all my cars and trucks that I have put 300k to 400k miles on
My Tundra today has 400k on the odometer with no issues
I will be switching from 5/30 oil to 5/40 oil in both my 3.6 Wranglers and my Tundra
If Maserati ghibli 3.0 v6 uses 5/40 there is no reason that we can't use it in our 3.6

I'm thinking this as well.

Buuuut... amsoil has a good article on oil viscosity, and one issue not discussed is, thicker viscosity oil does NOT transfer heat as well as thin oil. Hmmmm. They do admit one viscosity higher is probably not an issue particularly in hotter temps. They claim go much more than one though and you could oxidize the oil because it is not removing heat.

So I will probably go 0w-30 when i get to 20-30,000 miles. It just boggles me why 0w-50 would be better in Az. I always went higher vis in summer, and recovered some oil pressure, but didn't know I was not removing engine heat in doing so. That and we are talking differences from 70's to 2020's in tech and manufacturing tolerances.

 

[azjl#3]

I just ordered with positive put positive positive is a good idea
What most people don't understand is the thermostat starts to open at 188/190 degrees
There is absolutely NO reason or benefit to be running these motors as hot as 235 degrees.

better fuel specifics, better mpg, period. they don't care you wont get 200,000 miles out of the thing. They have the epa to make happy. The only reason they don't run 240-250ish that is when oil starts to deteriorate faster, and it's the limit for cooling with current coolants. Any higher it boils over..

 

[azjl#3]

well said carbonsteel, thanks, maybe i will go 0w-40...... As a BMW guy, my techs all put in thicker oil to prevent bad things happing with direct injection 6 cylinders, upward of 5w-40 during summer, even though bmw said 0w-30, it worked great, no mileage degradation noted, piece of mind worth it.

 

[roaniecowpony]

Some of my perspective on this discussion:
Our little 220 c.i. V6 Pentastar engines put out 285 hp on regular unleaded gas. That's 1.29hp/c.i. In my book, that's pretty sporty stuff for a naturally aspirated grocery getter. A 350 smallblock Chevy would have to make 450 hp to be equivalent. A 427 bigblock would have to make 550 hp. ...on regular unleaded gas. ...and it happens to be exactly the same output per c.i. as the C8 Corvette engine...which doesn't use a 0w20 MS-6395 oil.

Many people feel strongly that the oil, which engineers specified in the owner's manual, is the "best choice". To them, the engineer's choice is beyond question. I made a career out of questioning everything engineers did. You need only look at the 737 Max MCAS problem of a few years ago to see that engineers can and do make (bad) choices from pressures and goals beyond their control.

Some of us are using our jeeps in a way that exceeds what the engineers designed the JL to be capable of. Big tires, heavy add ons, and combined with extreme terrain and temperatures.

The oil temperature in the Pentastar is inseparable from the coolant temperature, due to that thing everyone calls a "cooler". That thing adds heat to the oil on engine warm-up, then keeps the oil at/near coolant temperature during normal operation. During extreme operation, it sheds high coolant temperature energy into the oil. That "cooler" does not have cooling fins and does not rely on air to cool the oil. It's a straight fluid to fluid heat exchanger, without a thermostat to bypass it.

These are some of the reasons I believe 0w20 MS-6395 oil isn't the best choice for my Jeep.

 

[Gunfighter]

I use the 0W-20 Pennzoil Ultra Platinum Synthetic stuff - it may be over kill, but I change it every 5k miles. Our neighbor is a pretty avid dunes and trails Jeeper (2019 JL Rubicon) and he has over 85k of miles on his motor (3.6) and he uses the same oil. No issues. Figure if he is harder on his Jeep than I am on mine and he is happy than it shouldn't be a problem with my Jeep.

 

[Willys41]

roaniecowpony
I agree
Engineers are no different than any other profession. The good the bad and the ugly
I have corrected many Engineers over the years and told them This will not work and had to prove my point. There is NO substitute for experience....
In the 3.6 the Engineers have a mandate. GET THE BEST MPG THAT YOU CAN GET OUT OF THIS MOTOR
The Maserati 3.0 v6 same as the Pentastar 3.6 they have no mandate except make the motor run fast and hard and if 5/40 oil is good enough for them its good enough for my 3.6 jeep
0/20 is a joke when it come to our jeep running height temps pushing big tires low gears and hauling lots of extra weight
The Maserati 3.0 v6.The normal operating temperature of the engine is 195 degrees Fahrenheit
That's the other issue that I fixed on my 3.6 jeep by installing a RPM Extreme JL fan controller
My jeep now run and average 195 degrees . NOT as high as 235 that I was seeing in the past

 

[CarbonSteel]

I'm thinking this as well.

Buuuut... amsoil has a good article on oil viscosity, and one issue not discussed is, thicker viscosity oil does NOT transfer heat as well as thin oil. Hmmmm. They do admit one viscosity higher is probably not an issue particularly in hotter temps. They claim go much more than one though and you could oxidize the oil because it is not removing heat.

So I will probably go 0w-30 when i get to 20-30,000 miles. It just boggles me why 0w-50 would be better in Az. I always went higher vis in summer, and recovered some oil pressure, but didn't know I was not removing engine heat in doing so. That and we are talking differences from 70's to 2020's in tech and manufacturing tolerances.

I like and use Amsoil gear oil because I believe it is arguably one of the best of the market and my experience towing heavy with it for hundreds of thousands of miles supports that belief.

Their motor oils not so much. Their own data is in direct conflict to what they are stating in your first paragraph:

We formulated Signature Series with superior thermal durability that resists breakdown and keeps pistons clean. The Sequence IIIH Test uses the Chrysler* 3.6L Pentastar* engine to evaluate a motor oil’s ability to resist heat and keep pistons clean. The test is conducted with oil temperatures of 304ºF (151ºC), much hotter than normal operation, to accelerate oil thickening and deposits. A single-length 90- hour test didn’t even challenge Signature Series. Its viscosity was like that of new oil, and the pistons were still nearly spotless. To really test the oil, we told the lab to reassemble the engine and run the test again using the same oil. Even after doubling the length of the industry-standard test, the oil limited oil thickening to well under the allowable threshold while delivering 40% cleaner pistons than required by the standard.

Ergo, while I agree that thicker can RETAIN more heat than thinner, it can absolutely depend on the engine's cooling capacity to remove such heat; thicker oil is not generating more heat. My pushback statement to them, is if the oil did not oxidize at 304F, then it certainly will not at 235-250F IF the thicker oil keeps the oil temperatures even that high.

 

[roaniecowpony]

roaniecowpony
I agree
Engineers are no different than any other profession. The good the bad and the ugly
I have corrected many Engineers over the years and told them This will not work and had to prove my point. There is NO substitute for experience....
In the 3.6 the Engineers have a mandate. GET THE BEST MPG THAT YOU CAN GET OUT OF THIS MOTOR
The Maserati 3.0 v6 same as the Pentastar 3.6 they have no mandate except make the motor run fast and hard and if 5/40 oil is good enough for them its good enough for my 3.6 jeep
0/20 is a joke when it come to our jeep running height temps pushing big tires low gears and hauling lots of extra weight
The Maserati 3.0 v6.The normal operating temperature of the engine is 195 degrees Fahrenheit
That's the other issue that I fixed on my 3.6 jeep by installing a RPM Extreme JL fan controller
My jeep now run and average 195 degrees . NOT as high as 235 that I was seeing in the past

Got a link on that fan controller?

 

[UncleJimmy]

Another benefit of heavier oils is that they are typically less volatile, and higher volatility combined with high/frequent heat cycles and PCV issues etc could contribute to increased oil emulsion being sucked into the intake and baked on the piston heads as in this video:



From what I can tell, the winning formula for longevity is:

• lower volatility oils (typically associated with heavier grades and choosing best formulas within whichever grade)
• lower engine temps with fan reprogram (which may help lower the amount of oil ingested into the engine as well as potentially extend the life of all the problematic plastic parts)
• Catch can to prevent excessive oil ingestion
• Seafoam the engine to help burn off carbon in conjunction with occasional:
• WOT drive aka Italian tune-up
• Do NOT overfill crankcase. These engines seem to need a longtime (overnight) to get an accurate reading on the dipstick, and the OM/waiting 5 minutes does not seem to be accurate. (This is one reason I'm not in favor of the Baxter oil adapter, as the engine already seems to retain oil; the oil adapter appears to add weight/leverage to the oil filter housing possibly increasing stress on the oil cooler o-rings, and my belief there is enough lubrication present -with a good oil - even without pressure for the relatively short and low rpm of cranking the engine; not to mention if dry starts were that much of an issue with ESS the engine failure rate would be sky-high, which it is not).

Some other things I'm still considering:

• Does updated PCV valve help?
• Would venting the hood help with engine temps on the JL?

 

[UncleJimmy]

Got a link on that fan controller?

http://www.rpmextreme.com/Product/311/Jeep-JL-PWM-FAN-CONTROLLER.aspx

I sent them an email last week. The owner was away at King of the Hammers....

I sent them a message asking about the POS/POS so I could manually turn on the fan at either medium or high speed with the Rubicon accessory buttons, as well as I asked if there was a way I could disable the tune when I do Seafoam treatments or for some other reason where I want the engine hot.

 

[roaniecowpony]

Another benefit of heavier oils is that they are typically less volatile, and higher volatility combined with high/frequent heat cycles and PCV issues etc could contribute to increased oil emulsion being sucked into the intake and baked on the piston heads as in this video:



From what I can tell, the winning formula for longevity is:

• lower volatility oils (typically associated with heavier grades and choosing best formulas within whichever grade)
• lower engine temps with fan reprogram (which may help lower the amount of oil ingested into the engine as well as potentially extend the life of all the problematic plastic parts)
• Catch can to prevent excessive oil ingestion
• Seafoam the engine to help burn off carbon in conjunction with occasional:
• WOT drive aka Italian tune-up

Some other things I'm still considering:

• Does updated PCV valve help?
• Would venting the hood help with engine temps on the JL?

One of our members here has his hood raised at the rear. Can't recall his findings on temperature. But there was a thread where he provided his input on it.

 

[roaniecowpony]

http://www.rpmextreme.com/Product/311/Jeep-JL-PWM-FAN-CONTROLLER.aspx

I sent them an email last week. The owner was away at King of the Hammers....

I sent them a message asking about the POS/POS so I could manually turn on the fan at either medium or high speed with the Rubicon accessory buttons, as well as I asked if there was a way I could disable the tune when I do Seafoam treatments or for some other reason where I want the engine hot.

I wonder if the weather curtailed KOH. It's been raining around here for a couple days now. Pretty heavy and windy at times.

 

[jav_eee]

I asked if there was a way I could disable the tune when I do Seafoam treatments or for some other reason where I want the engine hot.

I don’t know why but I need this feature to be implemented as well. If they’d do this I’d be all in on the controller right now.

edit: after thinking about it I’m sure a switch to interrupt one of the wires would do the trick. Damn I might just have to buy one now. Especially living in Deep South Texas where we see lots of 100°+ days.

 

[UncleJimmy]

I am going to edit my original post to include:

• Not to overfill oil crankcase. These engines seem to need a longtime (overnight) to get an accurate reading on the dipstick, and the OM/waiting 5 minutes does not seem to be accurate. (This is one reason I'm not in favor of the Baxter oil adapter, as the engine already seems to retain oil; the oil adapter appears to add weight/leverage to the oil filter housing possibly increasing stress on the oil cooler o-rings, and my belief there is enough lubrication present -with a good oil - even without pressure for the relatively short and low rpm of cranking the engine; not to mention if dry starts were that much of an issue with ESS the engine failure rate would be sky-high, which it is not).

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