0w20 more engine wear?

[chevymitchell]

You're losing it because the PCV system on the 3.6 sucks. I pour a 1/2 qt out of my catch can and it burns another 1/2 between 7500 mi oil changes.

The whole thing about 0W is startup wear, which is when your vehicle starts flowing lubricant and most of the wear occurs.

Losing a quart over 7500 miles is normal. I would have guessed, you'd lose more.

The old Chrysler spec was 1 quart of consumption per 2,000 miles up to 50,000 miles. There's a bulletin floating around for oil consumption. I'm not sure what it is on this version of the 3.6 without doing the digging, but 1 quart, even 2 quarts in 7500 miles would be expected or better than expected.

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[Rodeoflyer]

Yeah not too bad I guess. I've taken good care of my engine, it only gets redline 0w20 every 7500 which pretty much aligns with the oil life indicator. I guess it's the low tension/friction rings in the new design.

 

[Upnarms]

You're losing it because the PCV system on the 3.6 sucks. I pour a 1/2 qt out of my catch can and it burns another 1/2 between 7500 mi oil changes.

The whole thing about 0W is startup wear, which is when your vehicle starts flowing lubricant and most of the wear occurs.

I haven't taken the time to research that, but care to sum up the whole catch can thing? Thanks

 

[azjl#3]

Great thread folks. Far more informative than the which oil brand thread

Oil temperature anyone? Oil modifiers? As it relates to what viscosity should be considered.

My history, three previous 3.6's all ran oil at about 210-220 oil temp, unless it was 145 deg outside in Phx. I think the JK viscosity was 5-20? An E46 M3 with S54 motor, hemi 5.7. Ford 347.

My just purchased 23 rubi with 3.6 runs 230-245 with under 300 miles on odo, oat about 85f. I thought that a bit high then did some digging.

My investigation, engines, more specifically oils, are designed to run at 230-250 all day long. 270 the breakdown begins. I shouldn't have worried as my M3 ran at 260, under slightly spirited driving. Maybe these 3rd/4th gen pentastars are being built with closer tolerances. Maybe it's just because my engine has not been through enough learning cycles on the computer to run cooler.

The guy on this forum installing a larger oil cooler, what was his starting oil temp, I think 235? Right where it should be. Anyway...

So to oil modifiers, specifically Lucas low viscosity oil stabilizer. I used this stuff with great effect in stopping all startup ticking and knocking in two early 3.6 (2012/2013) and one 2020 hemi 5.7. I did not need to use it for noise in the 2018 3.6. Do not plan to use it in the 2023 3.6 until it gets to about 1000 miles of break in. Also , except for hemi, I only used half a bottle in each, about every other oil change. I do not know what oil temps did. I will watch that in this motor.

I may consider going 5w-30 once broken in. I have no fear that it will cause any issues. We all know the push to 0w20 is primarily to hit mpg goalposts, while getting about 100,000 out of an engine. Heck, my 2000 1500 had a coolant line running from radiator to rear diff, so it would heat the fluid for better mpg, it had an air dam which lowered a front skirt 2 inches, for 1mpg increase, start stop gave it another 1mpg. Impressive a 1500 with a v8 could get 23mpg. My 2018 3.6 rubi gave me almost 23mpg.

 

[Upnarms]

Great thread folks. Far more informative than the which oil brand thread

Oil temperature anyone? Oil modifiers? As it relates to what viscosity should be considered.

My history, three previous 3.6's all ran oil at about 210-220 oil temp, unless it was 145 deg outside in Phx. I think the JK viscosity was 5-20? An E46 M3 with S54 motor, hemi 5.7. Ford 347.

My just purchased 23 rubi with 3.6 runs 230-245 with under 300 miles on odo, oat about 85f. I thought that a bit high then did some digging.

My investigation, engines, more specifically oils, are designed to run at 230-250 all day long. 270 the breakdown begins. I shouldn't have worried as my M3 ran at 260, under slightly spirited driving. Maybe these 3rd/4th gen pentastars are being built with closer tolerances. Maybe it's just because my engine has not been through enough learning cycles on the computer to run cooler.

The guy on this forum installing a larger oil cooler, what was his starting oil temp, I think 235? Right where it should be. Anyway...

So to oil modifiers, specifically Lucas low viscosity oil stabilizer. I used this stuff with great effect in stopping all startup ticking and knocking in two early 3.6 (2012/2013) and one 2020 hemi 5.7. I did not need to use it for noise in the 2018 3.6. Do not plan to use it in the 2023 3.6 until it gets to about 1000 miles of break in. Also , except for hemi, I only used half a bottle in each, about every other oil change. I do not know what oil temps did. I will watch that in this motor.

I may consider going 5w-30 once broken in. I have no fear that it will cause any issues. We all know the push to 0w20 is primarily to hit mpg goalposts, while getting about 100,000 out of an engine. Heck, my 2000 1500 had a coolant line running from radiator to rear diff, so it would heat the fluid for better mpg, it had an air dam which lowered a front skirt 2 inches, for 1mpg increase, start stop gave it another 1mpg. Impressive a 1500 with a v8 could get 23mpg. My 2018 3.6 rubi gave me almost 23mpg.

I'm still on 0w20 for now. Took a trip up north from Phoenix. It was 108 out when I left. I was pulling my off road trailer (about 2000lbs ish) with my rubicon 3.6 non etorque. I usually only monitor coolant temps. This time I watched everything. Highest oil temp was 248 very briefly on one of the really long inclines. Going 60-65 in 4th in the high 4k to low 5k rpms(8spd auto). Coolant never broke 238. Oil pressure is normally around 30-31psi. Goes up to 70s when running hard, it's a quick jump like there is some threshold that triggers it. Stays in 70s until i get back to a higher gear and lower rpm, then right back to 31. Most oil temp readings were 210-230 for the majority of the drive.

We will see how 5w30 does next summer. I'm going to use 5w20 most of the year, cause they have that (mobil 1) at Costco. I can't find 0w20 there anymore so I was picking it up at wally world...still a great price at undet 30 bucks for 5qts. Costco has 5w20 on sale time to time 6qts 30 bucks.

 

[CarbonSteel]

The guy on this forum installing a larger oil cooler, what was his starting oil temp, I think 235? Right where it should be. Anyway...

Based upon what? It may be where FCA designed it to be, but from my viewpoint, I would rather have the oil at a constant 210-225°F range. He replaced his oil cooler with a Dorman and his oil temperatures went up due to the heat transfer from the engine into the aluminum of the Dorman so he installed the auxiliary cooler--which is a great idea. I am doing the same in the near future as I will be installing a RIPP SC.

 

[azjl#3]

Based upon what? It may be where FCA designed it to be, but from my viewpoint, I would rather have the oil at a constant 210-225°F range. He replaced his oil cooler with a Dorman and his oil temperatures went up due to the heat transfer from the engine into the aluminum of the Dorman so he installed the auxiliary cooler--which is a great idea. I am doing the same in the near future as I will be installing a RIPP SC.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/engine-oil-temperature/

Just one source, I do not have access to manufactures design specs but observations make the temp range correct.

Look, I am an old school keep the oil cool at all cost guy from the 60's. Problem, the oil is far superior, and as well as the engines are far superior in design than what we had back then. Hot oil back then? go 40w60. No one ever heard of zero wight.

I am not saying trying to keep it at 210 is a bad thing, just that you need to be sure to hit the 210 plus to burn off the water, and allow the motor to run the way the engineers designed it. If they thought it should be at 210, they would build it to be there. You have additional stress to consider adding a blower, so I would consider it as well.

Just drove to town, still breaking in the 3.6, oil temp quickly to 190-200 range, then up a long hill at 3500rpm, right to 240, as soon as hill crest and rpm dropped, oil temp dropped to 220 within a few minutes. It's doing exactly what the design team wanted. Now, the slightly noisy rear end, that's a different thread...

 

[CarbonSteel]

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/engine-oil-temperature/

Just one source, I do not have access to manufactures design specs but observations make the temp range correct.

Look, I am an old school keep the oil cool at all cost guy from the 60's. Problem, the oil is far superior, and as well as the engines are far superior in design than what we had back then. Hot oil back then? go 40w60. No one ever heard of zero wight.

I am not saying trying to keep it at 210 is a bad thing, just that you need to be sure to hit the 210 plus to burn off the water, and allow the motor to run the way the engineers designed it. If they thought it should be at 210, they would build it to be there. You have additional stress to consider adding a blower, so I would consider it as well.

Just drove to town, still breaking in the 3.6, oil temp quickly to 190-200 range, then up a long hill at 3500rpm, right to 240, as soon as hill crest and rpm dropped, oil temp dropped to 220 within a few minutes. It's doing exactly what the design team wanted. Now, the slightly noisy rear end, that's a different thread...

I think you are placing entirely too much faith in a group of engineers who have to compromise on so many levels and their priorities have ZERO relation to longevity. With VERY rare exception, every design change in the JL series was 100% geared towards CAFE credits and that does not relate to longevity in any shape or fashion.

Prime examples:

- Reduction of oil capacities
- Reduction of oil viscosities
- Introduction of a Front Axle Disconnect
- Introduction of 2 additional overdrive gears in the transmission
- Maximum increase of use of plastics including areas where plastics should never be considered such as the oil cooler/filter housing, valve covers, radiator, axle components, suspension components (ball joints--really?)
- Maximum weight reductions

An OEM (any of them) are interested in two things:

1. Selling vehicles at the least cost possible while acquiring the maximum amount of CAFE credits
2. Designing a vehicle to last past the warranty period because after that they can wash their hands of it

Notice in my original post that I said a range between 210 and 225 meaning the cap should be 225--not 245 or higher as I have seen with my 3.6L. There will be parts of the engine that are more than hot enough to burn the water from the oil and the temperatures we are seeing are out of the cooler which means it is even hotter elsewhere.

I am certainly no stranger to oil and oil data having shared more than most on the forum. The most interesting part here is that xW-20 HTHS viscosities (2.6) are 0.1 above the number (2.5) where the industry acknowledges that increased wear occurs. Do I really want an oil that is barely above the minimum seeing 240°F temperatures for extended periods of operation?

To each his or her own, but that is a hard pass for me.

 

[azjl#3]

Did I mention I would be going higher viscosity, and or lucas modifier? Yep, we agree.

 

[travis304]

I love this topic. It's on every single automotive forum. With exactly the same arguments and walls of text. Every. Single. Time.

Run what the manufacturer recommends. Run the fluid the motor was designed, engineered, tested, and built upon.

Or don't. Come up with [reason, justification, shade tree mechanic study or amateur "book"] written online by [Retired Old Expert Guy] or [Youtuber] on [Forum].

Change your oil weight by one class. Hell, be daring, go two up. Go from 0w20 to 5w20, even 5w30!

Now, stare at your temp gauge for hours and hours, and imagine that you just feel the difference. Imagine that it really is, indeed, better.

And then carry on. Have fun wheeling.

Next topic.

 

[Hootbro]

Project Farm wear scar machine is what county and state fair hucksters use to use 30+ years selling whatever miracle lube or additive they were pitching at the time. Has no basis for motor oil wear testing per ATSM standards. You can put dandruff shampoo in his machine and it will give a better small wear scar than most oils.

His coffee pot and drug dealer gram scale also does not simulate in any regard to DIN standards for NOACK testing which requires a way more complicated setup that uses a known reference standard oil to get results that are then benched against a motor oil that is being tested. DIN Noack testing does not but two tested oils off each other, only the reference standard oil.

His oil test videos are entertainment only. Nothing one would write an engineering white paper against. Only gives confirmation bias to those camps of whatever particular brand he claims comes out on top.

 

[Upnarms]

Project Farm wear scar machine is what county and state fair hucksters use to use 30+ years selling whatever miracle lube or additive they were pitching at the time. Has no basis for motor oil wear testing per ATSM standards. You can put dandruff shampoo in his machine and it will give a better small wear scar than most oils.

His coffee pot and drug dealer gram scale also does not simulate in any regard to DIN standards for NOACK testing which requires a way more complicated setup that uses a known reference standard oil to get results that are then benched against a motor oil that is being tested. DIN Noack testing does not but two tested oils off each other, only the reference standard oil.

His oil test videos are entertainment only. Nothing one would write an engineering white paper against. Only gives confirmation bias to those camps of whatever particular brand he claims comes out on top.

Wow, the big testing standards people must be worried that the little YouTube guy is a threat to their industry.

Like big Pharma telling us that... never mind I won't go there.

Huckster tests or not, it still showed performance differences between them. Whether or not that translates to any difference inside of an engine is to be seen. I think bacon grease did really really well in the wear scar test. I am all for using bacon grease if they can make it stay fluid when it cools down. Just the smell alone will be worth it

 

[Hootbro]

Huckster tests or not, it still showed performance differences between them. Whether or not that translates to any difference inside of an engine is to be seen.

Making false equivalencies like your big pharma statement does not take away from the fact his testing is flawed, way flawed.

Wow, the big testing standards people must be worried that the little YouTube guy is a threat to their industry.

The "Big Testing Standards" people are not out for Youtube clicks or vying for internet popularity. Their customers are the industry manufacturers that rely on them to certify their product meets an actual provable standard to a reference and not some guy in his rural farm garage making entertainment videos.

 

[Upnarms]

Making false equivalencies like your big pharma statement does not take away from the fact his testing is flawed, way flawed.



The "Big Testing Standards" people are not out for Youtube clicks or vying for internet popularity. Their customers are the industry manufacturers that rely on them to certify their product meets an actual provable standard to a reference and not some guy in his rural farm garage making entertainment videos.

Dude you gotta lighten up. I was joking. The bacon comment didn't give it away?

 

[Tncdrew]

Dude you gotta lighten up. I was joking. The bacon comment didn't give it away?

Mmmmm bacon....
Did someone mention bacon? ? ?

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