Winch Wiring Question

[Zandcwhite]

Fair questions.

Reason #1 to recommend a fuse is to protect the circuit. Actually, that’s the only reason to fuse a circuit. If anything experiences amperage flow that exceeds the circuit’s capacity, it’s better to pop a fuse, not a part or worse, light a fire.

Similar to how you use a mechanical disconnect, I use a main power relay for power isolation. My winch receives no power unless I close the relay.

Like you said, absent power in those cables, there's nothing for that fuse to protect. That said, if damage occurs between uses and we energize the circuit, it’s far better to have the fuse blow than hope we can isolate the circuit before we need the fire extinguisher and that’s why I recommend the Class T fuse.

If we can agree to that, here’s what I’ve been told why OEM’s (including Ram) don’t fuse the circuit - The perception of prioritizing circuit protection over operator protection is a litigious risk.

Which sounds better in court if you’re Warn?

A) Zach’s PowerWagon got destroyed by a train because the blown factory fuse prevented recovery from the railroad tracks.

B) Zach’s PowerWagon was so stuck on the tracks, he burned up his winch, cables and battery trying to get unstuck when the train hit his truck.

Let’s tweak the story because we’re not Warn or Ram but ordinary working folk just like OP:

A) Zach got towed out of the bog because he was stuck so deep, it exceeded the amp rating of his circuit and the damn fuse blew.

B) Zach got towed out of the bog because he was stuck so deep, he burned up his gear, broke his rope and had to use up a fire extinguisher.

Regardless of what part smokes doesn’t change the depth of the bog. It only changes the extent and cost of damage.

The cool part? If you’re stuck and the fuse blows, you can now decide if you want to bypass the fuse, press your luck and risk smoking more parts or replace the fuse, break out your sheave block to double the force and halve the amp load and try again….

All the same, thanks for the conversation, stay safe out there!

But in your first scenario you got struck by the train trying to rewire your winch or change the fuse. I'll take full power whenever I need it over a fuse personally, but you do you. What size fuse do you run? What winch? How has it worked under hard use?

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[VKSheridan]

Nah, stuck is stuck, the train hits us in both scenarios and the OEM lawyers are gonna blame us for the loss regardless.

I run a Quadratec Q-10 Stealth winch which is rated at 3.65 kW (304 amps). My circuit protection is set at 300 amps which means any amperage draw higher than what my winch would command under normal circumstances is capped.

If I scuff a cable and my battery wants to push 600+ amps before I even get my controller out, it ain’t gonna happen. If the fuse pops without a short, I can presume my winch is failing, no need to risk taking out everything upstream with it.

If I’m heading into a bog, I’ll energize before things get wet and lay the hook on the rear-view to eliminate the swim to the front bumper. As you can surmise, my “power check” occurs before I get wet. My winch and load check happens when I winch out to get that hook back to me. With a Bluetooth controller, it’s good to do a battery/communication check before you get into the ‘sippi-hole.

On dry ground when I get too bold, I‘m a bit of an idiot and don’t test until I’m needing recovery. I need to test before hitting the trail but where’s the fun in that?

I carry two spare fuses. I figure if I can’t rig, route or correct the situation three times without popping them, making my Jeep a Lincoln welder won’t help…..LOL

To date, I haven’t popped a fuse as my cable routing thus far has no varmint, rub or trail damage. I’ve done three wet pulls that seriously tested my anchors but (knock on wood), nothing to write home about.

The good fuse is one you never use. The best fuse is the one that saved your system.

Cheers!

 

[Zandcwhite]

Nah, stuck is stuck, the train hits us in both scenarios and the OEM lawyers are gonna blame us for the loss regardless.

I run a Quadratec Q-10 Stealth winch which is rated at 3.65 kW (304 amps). My circuit protection is set at 300 amps which means any amperage draw higher than what my winch would command under normal circumstances is capped.

If I scuff a cable and my battery wants to push 600+ amps before I even get my controller out, it ain’t gonna happen. If the fuse pops without a short, I can presume my winch is failing, no need to risk taking out everything upstream with it.

If I’m heading into a bog, I’ll energize before things get wet and lay the hook on the rear-view to eliminate the swim to the front bumper. As you can surmise, my “power check” occurs before I get wet. My winch and load check happens when I winch out to get that hook back to me. With a Bluetooth controller, it’s good to do a battery/communication check before you get into the ‘sippi-hole.

On dry ground when I get too bold, I‘m a bit of an idiot and don’t test until I’m needing recovery. I need to test before hitting the trail but where’s the fun in that?

I carry two spare fuses. I figure if I can’t rig, route or correct the situation three times without popping them, making my Jeep a Lincoln welder won’t help…..LOL

To date, I haven’t popped a fuse as my cable routing thus far has no varmint, rub or trail damage. I’ve done three wet pulls that seriously tested my anchors but (knock on wood), nothing to write home about.

The good fuse is one you never use. The best fuse is the one that saved your system.

Cheers!

Sounds like it's working, but I'd still argue your power cables aren't rated for 300A so they could still melt before the fuse would blow? Or did you upgrade to 300kcmil power cables?

 

[Mguy]

Much of the discussion in this thread has moved from the negative to the positive, which at least sounds good. A few comments for those still following, though some points will be basic for some readers.

There are two basic types of hardware to consider for the winch and it's red cable--switches and fuses. The winch and cable should be considered separately. The basic available ratings for each is cable ampacity, and winch maximum draw. These days, there is almost certainly an available size and hardware variation of a switch and fuse for any installation purpose. (Installation issues for hardware are not part of my comments).

Purposes of an installation vary. While all winch users must consider safety, there are two classes of users on different ends of the spectrum. Trail wheelers, often anxious to use their prized recovery gear, want protection from electrical damage. (There's also protection of the vehicle's other equipment to consider, but that's also not part of my comments). Others need a winch for their operating environment, to get out of the predicament they were unable to avoid.

The first problem with making switch and fuse decisions is that generally available ratings for cables and winches is somewhat opposite in meaning. Cable ampacity is for continuous duty, while winch ratings are for the maximum amp draw during a short duty cycle. Finding useful information on short duty cable ampacity, and continuous duty winch draw, is very difficult. If found, the numbers for cables will be higher than what's on the chart (AWG, ABYC, etc.), and winch numbers will be lower for what's on the manufacturer's web page.

The fun decision making part should only begin after both trail wheelers and predicament avoiders realize an on-off switching device at the battery is needed for safety while driving amongst routine "obstacles" on public roads that could lead to a front end collision. So, does a trail wheeler want to keep that cabling intact and not want to ever do the install again? Make that on-off switch a dual purpose circuit breaker rated well above published cable ampacity. Does the wheeler feel confident that the winch has sufficient internal circuit protection for under maximum but excessive continuous duty? Don't bother with a fuse at the winch end. Otherwise, do the fuse installation. I suspect most wheelers won't mind that some trial and error with different circuit breaker and fuse ratings could be necessary.

The predicament avoider has a different perspective. When this user needs to get out, the preservation of cabling and winch is secondary to having that equipment reliably perform at maximum capacity. So there are no additional switches or fuses that could compromise operation. Pulling will continue, perhaps with equipment cooling interruptions, until escape. Hopefully there will be no failure and no reveal of whether the cabling or winch is the weak link. This user also expects that if there is failure and the weak link is revealed, safe shut down will be available by either remote or direct control of the still functioning stronger link. It's then time to get the sat phone out, and think about heavier equipment for repair of the weak link.

Different JL owners will be on different positions of the user spectrum. Good luck to all figuring out what's best for them and their Jeep.

 

[VKSheridan]

Yes sir, I did not use the cables in the kit since I needed to run via the main power relay.

The winch cables I built are 3 AWG hence the sizing of the circuit protection off the motor.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Yes sir, I did not use the cables in the kit since I needed to run via the main power relay.

The winch cables I built are 3 AWG hence the sizing of the circuit protection off the motor.

3awg is only rated for 115A, still not sure it would hold up to a fairly long pull in the 250A range which would still not trip your 300A fuse though? Obviously the winch isn't continuous duty, but you also have very high ambient under hood temps that would require further derating of cables. In an overload scenario heat build up in the cable is usually what causes the damage. The power cable is preheated, especially if you're wheeling hard enough to get stuck. Our JLUR is the wife's daily, so those road obstacles are real. With the way I routed the cables you'd have to cave the front of the Jeep in 2'+ to cause a short. An impact that bad will 100% rip the plastic mounting tray for the battery to pieces. At that point the battery or factory cables are at least as big a risk of shorting. If your fuse makes you feel safer, run it. The idea that it's the only way, or even the right way isn't backed by the entire winching industry or the vast majority of winches installed and run for decades though.

 

[THAW]

As long as a battery is connected to a functioning charging system the direct connection from winch to battery needs charging system to addressed or isolated. That's where a fuse or circuit breaker is in question.

That is why my circuit was created. It has no baring on winch functionality as it stays passive until a set low voltage point is met during winch use. Just like a circuit breaker it will trip and disconnect the winch power... but is smarter in making the disconnect without delay or heat effecting accuracy. Properly setup it is a cheap and effective way to protect without much manual interaction.

What exactly do you believe a low-voltage disconnect for the winch wiring protects?

An AGM car battery can be effected by such things when depleting has gone below 12.1 V.

An AGM battery is not damaged in any meaningful sense by a brief discharge cycle reaching 12.1 V. In fact, the manufacturer recommended method for testing capacity requires attaching a C/20 load until voltage reaches 10.5 V (i.e. full discharge).

 

[YBABRAT]

What exactly do you believe a low-voltage disconnect for the winch wiring protects?



An AGM battery is not damaged in any meaningful sense by a brief discharge cycle reaching 12.1 V. In fact, the manufacturer recommended method for testing capacity requires attaching a 20C load until voltage reaches 10.5 V (i.e. full discharge).

That may be so for deep cycle AGM. As a primary single battery most OEMs don't use a deep cycle.

We had an AGM in our Honda. As a secondary car. We used it sparingly for months on end. Had no clue that the car required more activity to keep from depleting the battery. I recall about a months time would discharge enough to fail to start. Random low level charges caused memory to AGM, very much like NiCad. Could not keep a charge above 12.3V. Eventually causing an overcharge state with oem charging system. Went through 2 AGMs until we found out not to deplete an AGM car battery below 12.1V. It's been a rule of thumb and never has let me down. Many who moved from flooded cell may still have memory programmed to think AGM can be used and serviced just like a flooded cell. It is not the same and must be maintained accordingly.

I am not going to state all the details. Just googling AGM requirements and AGM differences will get you in the ballpark. My multi car battery 10A fast charger has 3 different charge modes. Flooded cell, AGM and LifePo4. None are interchange, else results will be detrimental. A slow charge maintainer can charge all three if they fall into a 14.4V charge capability. Fast charge is different for all three in that nominal voltage protesting and charge rates are different.

 

[Terrymo]

That may be so for deep cycle AGM. As a primary single battery most OEMs don't use a deep cycle.

We had an AGM in our Honda. As a secondary car. We used it sparingly for months on end. Had no clue that the car required more activity to keep from depleting the battery. I recall about a months time would discharge enough to fail to start. Random low level charges caused memory to AGM, very much like NiCad. Could not keep a charge above 12.3V. Eventually causing an overcharge state with oem charging system. Went through 2 AGMs until we found out not to deplete an AGM car battery below 12.1V. It's been a rule of thumb and never has let me down. Many who moved from flooded cell may still have memory programmed to think AGM can be used and serviced just like a flooded cell. It is not the same and must be maintained accordingly.

I am not going to state all the details. Just googling AGM requirements and AGM differences will get you in the ballpark. My multi car battery 10A fast charger has 3 different charge modes. Flooded cell, AGM and LifePo4. None are interchange, else results will be detrimental. A slow charge maintainer can charge all three if they fall into a 14.4V charge capability. Fast charge is different for all three in that nominal voltage protesting and charge rates are different.

I thought AGM car battery “memory” was a myth? Do you have a reputable source that shows something to the contrary?

 

[Zandcwhite]

I thought AGM car battery “memory” was a myth? Do you have a reputable source that shows something to the contrary?

VRLA DRY CELL AGM or GEL batteries do not exhibit this “use it” or “lose it” capacity-robbing effect known as memory. It is important to note, however, that if any lead-acid battery is left unattended and discharged for extended periods of time, its ability to do its job will be diminished and eventually extinguished.

It's not a thing. Discharging the battery during a hard pull isn't an issue. With the kind of amp draw you get from a hard pull I've never been able to discharge one to the point it wouldn't start the vehicle even after you could hear the winch bogging before finally stalling due to the voltage drop. Again I think it's a solution looking for a problem.

 

[VKSheridan]

VRLA DRY CELL AGM or GEL batteries do not exhibit this “use it” or “lose it” capacity-robbing effect known as memory. It is important to note, however, that if any lead-acid battery is left unattended and discharged for extended periods of time, its ability to do its job will be diminished and eventually extinguished.

It's not a thing. Discharging the battery during a hard pull isn't an issue. With the kind of amp draw you get from a hard pull I've never been able to discharge one to the point it wouldn't start the vehicle even after you could hear the winch bogging before finally stalling due to the voltage drop. Again I think it's a solution looking for a problem.

I’m with Zach on this one. Deep Cycle favors low, continuous draws like a trolling motor or powering a RV but they aren’t the best for banging out Cold Cranking Amps of which a winch desires.

Also Zach, I wasn’t properly clear on my cable gauge. I was meaning “3/0 AWG” which is rated in my range depending on duty cycle. This isn’t the chart I used but it says the same as the one I had. I went this size because it’d be easier to upgrade the winch if myself or the next guy bought a 500 amp one like yours.

 

[YBABRAT]

I thought AGM car battery “memory” was a myth? Do you have a reputable source that shows something to the contrary?

I mention memory as it's charge state. You can easily make an AGM no charge beyond 50% because of discharge beyond 60%. The common practice is never go beyond 70%

Here is a site with info. There are other sites on maintenance guidelines.

https://sunonbattery.com/agm-battery-voltage-capacity/

Here is another site...

https://maxworldpower.com/agm-battery-state-of-charge/

The info does validate why I will not allow an AGM to go beyond 12V on discharge.

 

[THAW]

I mention memory as it's charge state. You can easily make an AGM no charge beyond 50% because of discharge beyond 60%. The common practice is never go beyond 70%

AGM battery discharge depth "common practice" is to blame for common misconceptions about AGM battery life. Limited depth of discharge guidance for AGM batteries was designed primarily for matching battery bank capacity to average daily power draw requirements while allowing appropriate recharge time, building in contingent reserve capacity, and creating an appropriately long service interval. That is, it isn't directly related to chemical damage/aging and doesn't apply to occasional and intermittent winching.

AGM battery degradation is caused by sulfation. A brief discharge under winch load followed by appropriate alternator recharge time will not cause measurable irreversible sulfation.

 

[YBABRAT]

AGM battery discharge depth "common practice" is to blame for common misconceptions about AGM battery life. Limited depth of discharge guidance for AGM batteries was designed primarily for matching battery bank capacity to average daily power draw requirements while allowing appropriate recharge time, building in contingent reserve capacity, and creating an appropriately long service interval. That is, it isn't directly related to chemical damage/aging and doesn't apply to occasional and intermittent winching.

AGM battery degradation is caused by sulfation. A brief discharge under winch load followed by appropriate alternator recharge time will not cause measurable irreversible sulfation.

Thank you for a clear and direct facts that I did not place as a non issue with winching.

I new better, but my mind process is on unknowns and 1 in 1000 issues that may effect how your winch result can be a failure. I have no clue to what everyone's configuration, battery state and so on with electricals. If you haven't understood me earlier in my replies... my concept is overall protection. If you lack voltage it will protect you. Now what is voltage... it's a product of current and load. Under voltage can do damage as well as over voltage. It's real time protection unmatched by any manual methods to disconnect before serious damage is done. Just saying, by the time you notice fault, it's too late.

My input on this thread was on removing the gotcha issues before they make you dead in the water. In my opinion a good winch result is not that you pulled yourself or a victim of circumstance out of trouble. It's moving along on the trail or road soon after.

Jeepers come in all shapes and sizes, some may not fit well in round or square holes. Some expect a DIY install to be as good as professional or a used car with winch to be as good as any other.

When given 400+ Amps in an unknown application, my mind wants to simplify best method to save your ass. Some think it's over kill and needless. But who is to say every winch is 100% fault free. No broken brush, shorted communicator or stator, or faulty wiring. Then age of charging system and battery. Few are serious rock crawlers yet can see novices a mile away with what is driven on the streets. I'd say these days there are many JL vacation recreational that expect new or newer to be more reliable.

If you just happen to have a battery that will never fail in high heat or freezing weather, or have an alternator that can pump 250A without a sweat. And still want to blast AC/DC Back in Black with your 1500w amp 10 speakers and 12" woofer while winching out a Ford F250. Then by all means shoot me down for making an issue out of a non issue.

That is why I have stated you all will have to wait for my thread. This one had just gotten too big with too many distractions. Everything will be explained there.

 

[YBABRAT]

VRLA DRY CELL AGM or GEL batteries do not exhibit this “use it” or “lose it” capacity-robbing effect known as memory. It is important to note, however, that if any lead-acid battery is left unattended and discharged for extended periods of time, its ability to do its job will be diminished and eventually extinguished.

It's not a thing. Discharging the battery during a hard pull isn't an issue. With the kind of amp draw you get from a hard pull I've never been able to discharge one to the point it wouldn't start the vehicle even after you could hear the winch bogging before finally stalling due to the voltage drop. Again I think it's a solution looking for a problem.

That is one type of memory property Nicad has. The other more common is state of charge memory. If charging at above discharged on nicad batteries will limit nominal charge state. Less voltage less capacity. While AGM memory is the opposite. Discharging below 70% capacity will effect charging state. AGM is more critical than Flooded Cell. It doesn't happen quickly on first instance but it does effect capacity life with demands. This issue has nothing to do with desulfide. It's how AGM holds charge state internally compared to a top charge state.

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