LiFePO4 Main Battery Replacement

[Burtv]

I have been running this one, made specifically for automotive use, I have run it for about 2 years now now issues and chargers fine from factory charging system in 2020 JLUR 3.6L. It also has a "jump" feature built in, which has saved me a few times when I left the S-pod on or whatever and the battery drained dead, just push a button on a key fob (2 came with the battery) or push a button physically on the battery and it activates a small auxiliary battery built into the Antigravity battery and its starts the Jeep now issues, been a life saver.
I was concerned about some of the same issues about charging, freezing temps I read about and heard all the same things being said in this thread so I called the manufacturer directly to hear straight answers and all those things being said on forums were put to rest. If your not sure about a LiFePO4 then call the manufactures directly and get straight fully experienced answers and make your decision from there.
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/automotive/ag-h7-rs/

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[Spartywarrior]

I wouldn’t do it. The reasons are many but here’s my Top 3

1) LifePo4 is fantastic for low and slow discharge. Unlike an AGM battery, most LifePo4 batteries are not designed for hard bursts of cold cranking amps. Maximum amperage discharge as well as recharge is controlled by the onboard BMS. BMS is not a regulator that limits amperage flow, it’s more like an on/off switch that stops flow altogether until it resets.

2) LifePo4 doesn’t like the cold. The chemistry within the cells allows discharge in temperatures as low as -4F but the cells cannot accept a charge below 32F. With this in mind, the onboard BMS will electronically disconnect the battery from the circuit to protect it. When disconnected, you will have zero volts to power the memory in your radio much less turn your starter. Jumpstarting will not make your battery work, warming it is what it will require.

3) LifePo4 isn’t a huge fan of the heat. The chemistry of the cells is optimal between 60F and 104F but lithium really, really, really likes to shed electrons which risks thermal runaway if the cells are exposed to too much heat. Most BMS will trip and electronically disconnect at around 140F. 140F under the hood is extremely easy to achieve, especially in traffic.

We‘re running a pair of 400 Ah LifePo4 batteries in our Class A RV for a combined output of 10,240 watts to power it when we’re off the grid. Our lithium batteries can recharge at up to 200 amps per hour, they weigh less than the 4 AGM batteries they replaced and they can discharge well past 50% without risk of damage. No gassing, no corrosion, no worries of explosion around sparks. In that application, I think they make lead acid filled batteries as obsolete as a postage stamp. To start our RV though, we’re sticking with the AGM battery.

As a footnote, the alternator in our RV is used to not only charge our AGM starter battery but our Lithium batteries as well. The alternator doesn’t care if it’s connected to 12 VDC lithiums or 12 VDC AGM cells. Output is regulated by the voltage regulator, not the battery. The only “drawback” is when the alternator drops to a float phase of 13.5 VDC, the lithium cells don’t really want or need it if they’re fully charged. No harm or damage, just potential fuel burned to make energy not needed.

Lithium requires less absorption time and no float time which is why it’s best to use a lithium capable charger as a maintainer instead of an old school battery charger.

Said differently, Lithium needs just two phases of charging - Bulk and absorption since there’s no sulfation to worry about whereas AGM chargers are built to provide 9+ stages.

Can you use a conventional charger on LifePo4? Yes but because the charger will decrease voltage by design to prevent potential sulfation, it’s unlikely the battery will get fully charged. It won’t hurt it, you just won’t get the full capacity that you paid for.

Cheers

Have you ever had one? I have no cold weather issues. None. It has been fine in cold weather Michigan where temperatures are frequently below 0 F. I have the experience. Lol

 

[VKSheridan]

A decent BMS will simply disable charging when below freezing, not discharge.

Correct. BMS will allow discharge to as low as -4F but will not allow charging below 32F.

 

[Ratbert]

I was concerned about some of the same issues about charging, freezing temps I read about and heard all the same things being said in this thread so I called the manufacturer directly to hear straight answers and all those things being said on forums were put to rest. If your not sure about a LiFePO4 then call the manufactures directly and get straight fully experienced answers and make your decision from there.
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/automotive/ag-h7-rs/

How did they put it to rest? That page doesn't seem to say anything about what happens below freezing.

 

[Burtv]

How did they put it to rest? That page doesn't seem to say anything about what happens below freezing.

They put those concerns to rest in a conversation I had with them, I said in my reply I called the manufacturer directly and spoke with them. I didn't say the website addressed those issues, that was your assumption. The link was merely to show the OP what battery I purchased.
What happens below in freezing temps depends on the facts of the situation. If you park or store your vehicle for 7-10 days in below freezing without starting it may but probably won't discharge the LiFePO4. If you stored or didn't start the vehicle for 30 days or more you may have a starting discharging issue. If the battery is in freezing temps for days on end and the vehicle won't start then a remedy to try is to turn on the headlights for a few minutes, this will cause the battery to internally warm and will most likely start the vehicle. The battery may not charge under freezing temps but after the engine is running it warms the battery and will start charging in a few minutes. So it all depends on the facts of the situation.

 

[VKSheridan]

Have you ever had one? I have no cold weather issues. None. It has been fine in cold weather Michigan where temperatures are frequently below 0 F. I have the experience. Lol

I don’t own an Antigravity brand battery specifically. I trust your experience that your battery has worked. What I might question is for how long.

Lithium plating is a phenomenon that most frequently occurs when lithium cells colder than 32F are charged. It’s not dependent on one brand or another, it’s just the chemistry of the mineral.

To work around this limitation, battery manufacturers might modify the chemistry (LTO), some might install a heating function to electrically warm the cells or some might merely prevent charging via BMS settings.

Per Antigravity, your battery temperature ranges are similar to my batteries and will not charge if the BMS senses the cell temperature less than 32F.

Again, I don’t doubt your real world, first hand experience, I’m just curious if cranking with the starter is enough to warm the cells and/or if heat in the engine compartment eventually does the trick or what but here’s the spec sheet for the Antigravity RESTART battery. Take a gander at Section 8 on page 6 of 13. Interesting stuff and damn, I hope this conversation doesn’t jinx ya!

 

[Spartywarrior]

I don’t own an Antigravity brand battery specifically. I trust your experience that your battery has worked. What I might question is for how long.

Lithium plating is a phenomenon that most frequently occurs when lithium cells colder than 32F are charged. It’s not dependent on one brand or another, it’s just the chemistry of the mineral.

To work around this limitation, battery manufacturers might modify the chemistry (LTO), some might install a heating function to electrically warm the cells or some might merely prevent charging via BMS settings.

Per Antigravity, your battery temperature ranges are similar to my batteries and will not charge if the BMS senses the cell temperature less than 32F.

Again, I don’t doubt your real world, first hand experience, I’m just curious if cranking with the starter is enough to warm the cells and/or if heat in the engine compartment eventually does the trick or what but here’s the spec sheet for the Antigravity RESTART battery. Take a gander at Section 8 on page 6 of 13. Interesting stuff and damn, I hope this conversation doesn’t jinx ya!

Had it 4 years now 10 year warranty.

 

[Wabujitsu]

Yes - I was mainly looking at the American-made brands like Dakota Lithium

They are a U.S. company based in SC. They designed the Ionic batteries. I cannot determine if they are made here, or made overseas to their specifications, though. https://lithiumhub.com/about-lithiumhub/

 

[Spartywarrior]

They are a U.S. company based in SC. They designed the Ionic batteries. I cannot determine if they are made here, or made overseas to their specifications, though. https://lithiumhub.com/about-lithiumhub/

Los Angeles

 

[Wabujitsu]

Why?

They're not designed with the characteristics desired for starting the engine, they're extremely expensive, and you have to make damn sure to never charge them below freezing.

If you were powering a camper or something similar, then absolutely, it'd make sense for the additional amp hours, longevity, and weight reduction.

Here it's a shitload of money for not a lot of benefit.

If you're looking for more amp hours then consider a @Genesis Offroad system. Significantly less headache.

John, my research shows there ARE LiFePO4 batteries designed SPECIFICALLY for starting auto engines, and they are not expensive. Check out the link in a previous post of mine - for $369 you can buh the battery with Bluetooth and an internal heater for cold weather, with a five-year warranty - from a U.S. company.

 

[Wabujitsu]

Los Angeles

Thanks. Why is their mailing address in SC, according to their website? Also, any idea if they make the batteries here, or do they outsource that part?

LithiumHub

125 Tate Rd.

Norris, SC 29667

704-360-9311

 

[THAW]

EDIT: I believe the issue is, aside from voltage differences, that the IBS tries to never charge the battery fully. In the Genesis setup I think the IBS is deleted fully along the Aux battery.

The Genesis Offroad dual battery system doesn't eliminate the IBS. Up to their Gen 3 systems, the IBS is moved to the accessory battery (the one that disconnects from the Jeep), but users have successfully moved the IBS back to the battery that's permanently connected to the Jeep.

 

[THAW]

Surprisingly, you can get a Bluetooth battery with heater, designed as a vehicle start battery, for $369: https://lithiumhub.com/product/ioni...WgMv2mdA6zpCnfn4IF1K1_g3Zgn_ooXnMWHBtb5W58pbc

@Wabujitsu, you know how 4xes sometimes catch fire because of a manufacturing issue with the separator in the Lithium battery? Well given you're considering a relatively inexpensive Lithium (granted, a LiFePO4) battery, you might find the discussion of cheap Lithium Ion cells in this video (by a former Mythbusters guy) interesting:

 

[Spartywarrior]

Thanks. Why is their mailing address in SC, according to their website? Also, any idea if they make the batteries here, or do they outsource that part?

LithiumHub

125 Tate Rd.

Norris, SC 29667

704-360-9311

I have no clue what Lithium Hub is. Someone claimed Lithium Hub was the parent company. I answered your request where Anti Gravity batteries were produced. Los Angeles.

 

[Tr4ckD4ys]

They are a U.S. company based in SC. They designed the Ionic batteries. I cannot determine if they are made here, or made overseas to their specifications, though. https://lithiumhub.com/about-lithiumhub/

Los Angeles

My (quick) research showed that the ionic battery company is mainly based and produced in China. It may have been wrong though, the Internet has been known to be wrong.

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