Diesel engine additives test

[GladiatorPilot23]

and what different in performance are you seeing?

i've found that while Renewable Diesel doesn't fill up the DPF as fast, it also provides less power and lower fuel economy than a good Petro-D (usually with BioD).

My power has been no different and maybe a bit more then #2? How many tanks did you go threw and which station fuel were you using?

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[Terpsmandan]

There does not seem to be any renewable here in W NY.

 

[zouch]

many more tanks than i can count; not always by choice.
while i rarely spend any time at WFO, the lower fuel economy is my indication of lower power.

Renewable is so common here it’s all you can find sometimes. many major brands are pumping it.

My power has been no different in maybe more then #2? How many tanks did you go threw and which station fuel were you using?

 

[GladiatorPilot23]

I'm guessing you missed this post?



@GladiatorPilot23 all diesel fuel additives are worthless. The only thing you need is biodiesel fuel. I guess if you don't have any near you, then you can use some of the other fuel additives.

But they'll never be as good as biodiesel fuel!

You're welcome!

I did not miss it. You missed the meaning of my replay, in regards to MMO. It has metallic compounds. " Not for use in diesel fuel in engines manufactured after 2007. For modern diesel engines use Marvel Ultimate Fuel & Motor Treatment instead of Marvel Mystery Oil." From there site.

This will plug up the DPF with ASH from the metallic compounds that can't be burned. You would need to send it out and try to do an industrial cleaning of the DPF to try and remove it. Hard to do on our Jeeps since it does not just come out with a V clamp like big rigs.

 

[GladiatorPilot23]

I'm guessing you missed this post?



@GladiatorPilot23 all diesel fuel additives are worthless. The only thing you need is biodiesel fuel. I guess if you don't have any near you, then you can use some of the other fuel additives.

But they'll never be as good as biodiesel fuel!

You're welcome!

I know about biodiesels lubricity. Firstly no matter what the station old or new stickers say, I does not mean it always biodiesel. There is no way to test it on the spot that I know of to verify. So labels even say MAY contain or UP TO XX% which could be 0% and up. You don't know and that is not a prudent way of making sure a wear scar is 460 micron or below. A fuel additive does more then lubricity. 2 Important chemicals are 2-EHN & 2-Ethylhexanol that are very important aside of the Fatty acid methyl esters (FAME) based lubricants.

 

[Gomer Pyle]

I know about biodiesels lubricity. Firstly no matter what the station old or new stickers say, I does not mean it always biodiesel. There is no way to test it on the spot that I know of to verify. So labels even say MAY contain or UP TO XX% which could be 0% and up. You don't know and that is not a prudent way of making sure a wear scar is 460 micron or below. A fuel additive does more then lubricity. 2 Important chemicals are 2-EHN & 2-Ethylhexanol that are very important aside of the Fatty acid methyl esters (FAME) based lubricants.

never thought I'd hear someone reference 2EH in my Jeep forums but here we are! Haha, I work in the chemical & solvents distribution world so thanks for the reference!

 

[Tredsdert]

I know about biodiesels lubricity. Firstly no matter what the station old or new stickers say, I does not mean it always biodiesel. There is no way to test it on the spot that I know of to verify. So labels even say MAY contain or UP TO XX% which could be 0% and up. You don't know and that is not a prudent way of making sure a wear scar is 460 micron or below. A fuel additive does more then lubricity. 2 Important chemicals are 2-EHN & 2-Ethylhexanol that are very important aside of the Fatty acid methyl esters (FAME) based lubricants.

You seem like a numbers guy, and by that I mean you don't seem to know much of anything about marketing and legal.

I'll give you a little bit of a marketing and legal knowledge that I picked up over the years.

Most of the things on the fuel pumps are either required by law to be posted there, or to lessen the chances of the fuel station from getting sued... and occasionally to tell you you can get a free hot dog If you purchase so much fuel.

Spoiler

There's a bit of logic you seem to be missing.

"Much of the petroleum diesel fuel sold in the United States contains up to 1% biodiesel because biodiesel's lubrication qualities can potentially prolong the lifetime of certain engine components."
Source: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/biofuels/biodiesel-rd-other-use-supply.php

If most of the diesel in the United States contains up to 1% biodiesel, then logic would tell you that all diesel fuel sold as biodiesel contains more than 0% biodiesel. There's also the legality of selling something that doesn't contain any of what you're saying it has in it. In general, a company selling something like B10 biodiesel is going to aim as close to 10% biodiesel fuel as they can. They're not going to get it every time, but that's what the sticker on there really means. Up to 10% biodiesel, that way if there's less than 10% in there, you can't sue them. However making the assumption that it could potentially contain 0% biodiesel, is a bit of a stretch, and would open the company up to a major class action lawsuit.

If you can provide some level of proof that there is in fact potentially 0% biodiesel in something such as B10 biodiesel, I'm all ears.

As much as I like the idea of questioning everything, and I do that quite a bit myself, I prefer to base things on facts, not assumptions.

You're on the right track, you just need to do a little more research. Opinions are worth their weight and gold.


On a side note: I am super curious what you do for a living? Because you seem like a smart guy, but then you don't provide any proof, or any sources, and your whole premise is based on what we don't know, which inadvertently includes what you don't know.

EDIT: I should probably throw in here as well, the fact that most diesel and gasoline fuel sold in the United States already has a fuel additive package on it.

Check out the fuel type on the right hand column for this first link. Look just how many diesel fuel additives there are available on the market!

EPA - List of Registered Diesel Additives

This one is quite a bit more in depth, but still an interesting read if you like learning.

https://dieselnet.com/tech/fuel_diesel_additives

While I can't find anything that says how low of a percentage of biodiesel is in specifically biodiesel fuel, I am meeting an overwhelming amount of information that pretty much points to them dumping biodiesel into everything diesel related.

@GladiatorPilot23 You're going to have a really hard time finding any level of proof showing that there could potentially be 0% biodiesel in biodiesel fuel. And remember 2% biodiesel is the amount that you need to completely blow most of the fuel additives out of the water for lubricity. So chances are your thought process is heavily flawed at best.

 

[Ratbert]

I know about biodiesels lubricity. Firstly no matter what the station old or new stickers say, I does not mean it always biodiesel. There is no way to test it on the spot that I know of to verify. So labels even say MAY contain or UP TO XX% which could be 0% and up. You don't know and that is not a prudent way of making sure a wear scar is 460 micron or below. A fuel additive does more then lubricity. 2 Important chemicals are 2-EHN & 2-Ethylhexanol that are very important aside of the Fatty acid methyl esters (FAME) based lubricants.

Are you familiar with ASTM D7467, the official spec for B6 to B20 biodiesel blends?
Nowhere does it say "up to 20%".

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/biodiesel-specifications

 

[GladiatorPilot23]

never thought I'd hear someone reference 2EH in my Jeep forums but here we are! Haha, I work in the chemical & solvents distribution world so thanks for the reference!

Oh, that’s awesome. There’s a private Facebook group with other like-minded people that I’m part of we do a lot of deep diving and research and many other people have mechanical and engineering backgrounds. The goal is to maintain the highest level of reliability and maintenance and using things that work. One of our members has 530,000 miles on the original engine.

 

[GladiatorPilot23]

Are you familiar with ASTM D7467, the official spec for B6 to B20 biodiesel blends?
Nowhere does it say "up to 20%".

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/biodiesel-specifications

Are you familiar with ASTM D7467, the official spec for B6 to B20 biodiesel blends?
Nowhere does it say "up to 20%".

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/biodiesel-specifications

I’m not talking about a label that says B6 to B 20. I said some labels may contain language that doesn’t specify the quantity. This is the problem I have at some of the stations I fill up. That’s why I said MAY. At my local 76 where I get my renewable diesel it has that label.

from the label, how much buy diesel does this fuel have?

 

[GladiatorPilot23]

You seem like a numbers guy, and by that I mean you don't seem to know much of anything about marketing and legal.

I'll give you a little bit of a marketing and legal knowledge that I picked up over the years.

Most of the things on the fuel pumps are either required by law to be posted there, or to lessen the chances of the fuel station from getting sued... and occasionally to tell you you can get a free hot dog If you purchase so much fuel.

Spoiler

There's a bit of logic you seem to be missing.

"Much of the petroleum diesel fuel sold in the United States contains up to 1% biodiesel because biodiesel's lubrication qualities can potentially prolong the lifetime of certain engine components."
Source: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/biofuels/biodiesel-rd-other-use-supply.php

If most of the diesel in the United States contains up to 1% biodiesel, then logic would tell you that all diesel fuel sold as biodiesel contains more than 0% biodiesel. There's also the legality of selling something that doesn't contain any of what you're saying it has in it. In general, a company selling something like B10 biodiesel is going to aim as close to 10% biodiesel fuel as they can. They're not going to get it every time, but that's what the sticker on there really means. Up to 10% biodiesel, that way if there's less than 10% in there, you can't sue them. However making the assumption that it could potentially contain 0% biodiesel, is a bit of a stretch, and would open the company up to a major class action lawsuit.

If you can provide some level of proof that there is in fact potentially 0% biodiesel in something such as B10 biodiesel, I'm all ears.

As much as I like the idea of questioning everything, and I do that quite a bit myself, I prefer to base things on facts, not assumptions.

You're on the right track, you just need to do a little more research. Opinions are worth their weight and gold.


On a side note: I am super curious what you do for a living? Because you seem like a smart guy, but then you don't provide any proof, or any sources, and your whole premise is based on what we don't know, which inadvertently includes what you don't know.

EDIT: I should probably throw in here as well, the fact that most diesel and gasoline fuel sold in the United States already has a fuel additive package on it.

Check out the fuel type on the right hand column for this first link. Look just how many diesel fuel additives there are available on the market!

EPA - List of Registered Diesel Additives

This one is quite a bit more in depth, but still an interesting read if you like learning.

https://dieselnet.com/tech/fuel_diesel_additives

While I can't find anything that says how low of a percentage of biodiesel is in specifically biodiesel fuel, I am meeting an overwhelming amount of information that pretty much points to them dumping biodiesel into everything diesel related.

@GladiatorPilot23 You're going to have a really hard time finding any level of proof showing that there could potentially be 0% biodiesel in biodiesel fuel. And remember 2% biodiesel is the amount that you need to completely blow most of the fuel additives out of the water for lubricity. So chances are your thought process is heavily flawed at best.

You cannot rely on the label alone as 100% certainty with the biodiesel content primarily from small operations. With large top-tier companies such as a Shell Chevron , Mobil etc., they’re labeling is gonna be far more reliable than low cost private brand station. I posted a label for Ratbert and you can see their in this case it is not clear. I have a Shell station that says that does say B 20 and since it is Shell there’s a high probability that it’s going to be accurate. The problem is that it’s not renewable diesel.

Now the other major problem with biodiesel from the pump is that it absorbs a lot of water. It also has a microbes and allergy as another problem. This is especially a big concern with the smaller private stations that do not have the same quality control as the others mentioned. This is why it’s a benefit to control the lubricity yourself and stay away from biodiesel.

Your also don’t like Cetane which you get from additives. You were saying it was a waste of money? The minimum requirements federally is 40 Cetane California 53. Renewable is 70 and it goes as high as 90 and the difference in how quiet and how responsive it is was very obvious when I use higher Cetane. It starts easier and creates less soot as well.

The thing that’s by far the worst is your use of Marvel mystery oil and a shortening of the life of your DPF and SCR by using it.

 

[RicRecon]

You cannot rely on the label alone as 100% certainty with the biodiesel content primarily from small operations. With large top-tier companies such as a Shell Chevron , Mobil etc., they’re labeling is gonna be far more reliable than low cost private brand station. I posted a label for Ratbert and you can see their in this case it is not clear. I have a Shell station that says that does say B 20 and since it is Shell there’s a high probability that it’s going to be accurate. The problem is that it’s not renewable diesel.

Now the other major problem with biodiesel from the pump is that it absorbs a lot of water. It also has a microbes and allergy as another problem. This is especially a big concern with the smaller private stations that do not have the same quality control as the others mentioned. This is why it’s a benefit to control the lubricity yourself and stay away from biodiesel.

Your also don’t like Cetane which you get from additives. You were saying it was a waste of money? The minimum requirements federally is 40 Cetane California 53. Renewable is 70 and it goes as high as 90 and the difference in how quiet and how responsive it is was very obvious when I use higher Cetane. It starts easier and creates less sit as well.

The thing that’s by far the worst is your use of Marvel mystery oil and a shortening of the life of your DPF and SCR by using it.

My experiences by primarily using renewable diesel is similar to your observations. Much quieter, responsive, less soot, and smells better especially when getting it all over your hands/arm when changing the FF.

 

[Tredsdert]

You cannot rely on the label alone as 100% certainty with the biodiesel content primarily from small operations. With large top-tier companies such as a Shell Chevron , Mobil etc., they’re labeling is gonna be far more reliable than low cost private brand station. I posted a label for Ratbert and you can see their in this case it is not clear. I have a Shell station that says that does say B 20 and since it is Shell there’s a high probability that it’s going to be accurate. The problem is that it’s not renewable diesel.

Now the other major problem with biodiesel from the pump is that it absorbs a lot of water. It also has a microbes and allergy as another problem. This is especially a big concern with the smaller private stations that do not have the same quality control as the others mentioned. This is why it’s a benefit to control the lubricity yourself and stay away from biodiesel.

Your also don’t like Cetane which you get from additives. You were saying it was a waste of money? The minimum requirements federally is 40 Cetane California 53. Renewable is 70 and it goes as high as 90 and the difference in how quiet and how responsive it is was very obvious when I use higher Cetane. It starts easier and creates less sit as well.

The thing that’s by far the worst is your use of Marvel mystery oil and a shortening of the life of your DPF and SCR by using it.

Actually one of the things I was reading last night, which I didn't feel the need to share because my post was already long enough, biodiesel actually burns more cleanly and wholy than regular petroleum based diesel.

So you're adding cetane to biodiesel fuel to make it burn more cleanly? Talk about overkill.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gMkKegQIRRAE&usg=AOvVaw0hliMeKmRjXSDrL6cgHtp7

It would be nice if you would provide some evidence for your preposterous claims. I'd love to go back and forth all day with you, but if you don't have anything other than your opinion, there's really no point in debating this subject any further.

"Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence” - Carl Sagan

 

[GladiatorPilot23]

Actually one of the things I was reading last night, which I didn't feel the need to share because my post was already long enough, biodiesel actually burns more cleanly and wholy than regular petroleum based diesel.

So you're adding cetane to biodiesel fuel to make it burn more cleanly? Talk about overkill.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gMkKegQIRRAE&usg=AOvVaw0hliMeKmRjXSDrL6cgHtp7

It would be nice if you would provide some evidence for your preposterous claims. I'd love to go back and forth all day with you, but if you don't have anything other than your opinion, there's really no point in debating this subject any further.

"Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence” - Carl Sagan

The maximum you can run that is approved for the EcoD is B20. Bio also has less BTUs of energy over petroleum based diesel as well but yes it burns cleaner and adds lubricity. One reason that it burns cleaner is that it has more Cetane 45-65, compared to petrol #2 40-55 Cetane. If Bio is in there though, keep in mind its a small percent that will give you the cleaner burning/slight higher Cetane. The cons are you need to be sure that the you know how much is in there and that is the problem when especially when your dealing with small private stations were the water and microbes/alga is a major concern. Some dealers after HPFP recall provided a pamphlet from Stellantis ask to use 5% Bio and only 20% in emergency and use the fuel in 30 days or less. The nice thing about renewable is that it doesn't have those problems and can be stored for years. Hospitals and Government generators have moved over to it for that long storage life.

I saw this pics from Bucees which says UP TO 5%. It could be ZERO % lol. There is no minimum % by federal law. I understand your trying to save a little $$ per gallon by no additives but I think its penny wise dollar foolish. Its $10G if the pump has a total melt down to replace everything. Its .10 cents a gallon to run EDT at full does. Also, don't forget if you raise Cetane you get back a bit with the MPG not to mentioned the good ones have the detergents to clean injectors and combustion chamber. I use Redline 85+ Catalyst plus 1oz per 10gallon Hotshots LX4 lube. I'll be going to Optilube once Im out with a blend of Boost and XL Extreme. I don't need antigel but if I did I would run the all in one.

 

[Tredsdert]

The maximum you can run that is approved for the EcoD is B20. Bio also has less BTUs of energy over petroleum based diesel as well but yes it burns cleaner and adds lubricity. One reason that it burns cleaner is that it has more Cetane 45-65, compared to petrol #2 40-55 Cetane. If Bio is in there though, keep in mind its a small percent that will give you the cleaner burning/slight higher Cetane. The cons are you need to be sure that the you know how much is in there and that is the problem when especially when your dealing with small private stations were the water and microbes/alga is a major concern. Some dealers after HPFP recall provided a pamphlet from Stellantis ask to use 5% Bio and only 20% in emergency and use the fuel in 30 days or less. The nice thing about renewable is that it doesn't have those problems and can be stored for years. Hospitals and Government generators have moved over to it for that long storage life.

I saw this pics from Bucees which says UP TO 5%. It could be ZERO % lol. There is no minimum % by federal law. I understand your trying to save a little $$ per gallon by no additives but I think its penny wise dollar foolish. Its $10G if the pump has a total melt down to replace everything. Its .10 cents a gallon to run EDT at full does. Also, don't forget if you raise Cetane you get back a bit with the MPG not to mentioned the good ones have the detergents to clean injectors and combustion chamber. I use Redline 85+ Catalyst plus 1oz per 10gallon Hotshots LX4 lube. I'll be going to Optilube once Im out with a blend of Boost and XL Extreme. I don't need antigel but if I did I would run the all in one.

I don't know why you're still talking about cetane nor lubricity, it's already been proven biodiesel is the best. I mean if you just want to debate with someone, then go bother someone else. I got better things to do than run around in circles with a broken record.

Have a good day.

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