0w20 more engine wear?

[TheRaven]

A couple facts to add:

- German luxury makers were spec'ing 0w-40 nearly 30 years ago. If those complicated POS's could survive 150k miles on 0w oil then i've got no problem using it in my vehicles. I started using it in my Z06 and STS-V back in 2007.

- GM released a TSB back in 2021 during the "bad batch of lifters" fiasco that warned dealer techs about using 5w-30 in place of the specified 0w-20. It stated that if it was found that oil other than 0w-20 was used on AFM/DFM-equipped engines, internal damage would not be covered. If GM is voiding warranties over it, they are clearly pretty confident.

Oils of the same viscosity will have more or less wear. Factual testing shows the Amsoil have the least wear.

This has long been debunked. Nothing wrong with Amsoil, but it's nothing special either.

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[Upnarms]

A couple facts to add:

- German luxury makers were spec'ing 0w-40 nearly 30 years ago. If those complicated POS's could survive 150k miles on 0w oil then i've got no problem using it in my vehicles. I started using it in my Z06 and STS-V back in 2007.

- GM released a TSB back in 2021 during the "bad batch of lifters" fiasco that warned dealer techs about using 5w-30 in place of the specified 0w-20. It stated that if it was found that oil other than 0w-20 was used on AFM/DFM-equipped engines, internal damage would not be covered. If GM is voiding warranties over it, they are clearly pretty confident.



This has long been debunked. Nothing wrong with Amsoil, but it's nothing special either.

Interesting you bring up bmw. It has been a known issue with them consuming oil, up to a quart every 750 mi.

https://thecarinvestor.com/do-bmws-burn-oil/

 

[TheRaven]

Interesting you bring up bmw. It has been a known issue with them consuming oil, up to a quart every 750 mi.

https://thecarinvestor.com/do-bmws-burn-oil/

Yup, so did all GM, Ford, and Dodge V8's up until the recent generations where most of them switched to 0w-20. Some of them still do, but it's much less common than it used to be.

 

[CarbonSteel]

A couple facts to add:

- German luxury makers were spec'ing 0w-40 nearly 30 years ago. If those complicated POS's could survive 150k miles on 0w oil then i've got no problem using it in my vehicles. I started using it in my Z06 and STS-V back in 2007.

- GM released a TSB back in 2021 during the "bad batch of lifters" fiasco that warned dealer techs about using 5w-30 in place of the specified 0w-20. It stated that if it was found that oil other than 0w-20 was used on AFM/DFM-equipped engines, internal damage would not be covered. If GM is voiding warranties over it, they are clearly pretty confident.

Agree--to focus on the "0" is the wrong approach and often times 0W-xx oils have more "synthetic" properties due to the need to flow at extremely cold temperatures.

For GM, it would be laughable if a 5W-30 caused damage where a 0W-20 will not. It would also be very interesting to see how they would approach proving there was a 5W-30 oil in the engine versus a 0W-20 (other than asking for receipts).

 

[TheRaven]

For GM, it would be laughable if a 5W-30 caused damage where a 0W-20 will not. It would also be very interesting to see how they would approach proving there was a 5W-30 oil in the engine versus a 0W-20 (other than asking for receipts).

I have no idea how they were making the determination of oil weight after-the-fact. The situation with GM is the VLOM that controls oil flow to the collapsible lifters...using heavier weight oil can cause it to actuate the lifters outside of AFM/DFM conditions and that's catastrophic to the engine. What's ridiculous about the timing of the TSB is that the lifter problem had nothing to do with the VLOM, they were bad lifters as acknowledged by the manufacturer AND GM. It apparently was noticed because they had to crack open so many motors that imploded due to bad lifters and GM felt it appropriate to add (major) insult to (major) injury by essentially saying "yeah our bad lifters caused your engine to implode but we aren't going to cover it due to this unrelated detail".

So THAT is why I caution people about deciding to use whatever oil they think is right - there may be reasons OTHER than long-term engine wear that this particular oil is specified. Ram uses the exact same system as GM for DoD so the same problem exists there, for instance.

 

[CarbonSteel]

I have no idea how they were making the determination of oil weight after-the-fact. The situation with GM is the VLOM that controls oil flow to the collapsible lifters...using heavier weight oil can cause it to actuate the lifters outside of AFM/DFM conditions and that's catastrophic to the engine. What's ridiculous about the timing of the TSB is that the lifter problem had nothing to do with the VLOM, they were bad lifters as acknowledged by the manufacturer AND GM. It apparently was noticed because they had to crack open so many motors that imploded due to bad lifters and GM felt it appropriate to add (major) insult to (major) injury by essentially saying "yeah our bad lifters caused your engine to implode but we aren't going to cover it due to this unrelated detail".

So THAT is why I caution people about deciding to use whatever oil they think is right - there may be reasons OTHER than long-term engine wear that this particular oil is specified. Ram uses the exact same system as GM for DoD so the same problem exists there, for instance.

I struggle with that given there is so much variation in viscosity within any particular grade. You can have an xW-20 that is almost an xW-30 and vice-versa. I find it more than a little incredulous that a system is designed so tightly to depend on such a tight viscosity range. I could see if you were going from a xW-20 to an xW-40 or xW-50, but between a 20 and 30--it seems implausible the oil caused the issue unless ambient temperatures were a factor (extremely cold). I have posted this before, but worth a repeat:

Here is the typical KV and HTHS numbers for 3 different viscosity ranges:

Oil Brand	Viscosity	Minimum KV @100°C	Maximum KV @100°C	HTHS @ 150°C
---	xW-20	5.6	9.3	2.6
---	xW-30	9.3	12.5	2.9
---	xW-40	12.6	16.3	3.7

Here are the same values for specific brands and 0W-20 viscosities which are ranked from thinnest to thickest within the same viscosity. Havoline is the thinnest 0W-20 and Redline is the thickest (using the KV numbers):

Oil Brand	Viscosity	KV @100°C	HTHS @ 150°C
Havoline Pro-DS	0W-20	8.0	---
Castrol Edge	0W-20	8.2	2.6
Quaker State FS	0W-20	8.3	---
Rotella Gas Truck	0W-20	8.4	---
Valvoline Extended Protection	0W-20	8.4	2.7
Pennzoil Platinum	0W-20	8.6	2.6
Mobil 1 Extended Performance	0W-20	8.6	---
Kendall GT-1	0W-20	8.8	2.6
Redline Synthetic	0W-20	9.1	2.9

Likewise, from the 5W-30 perspective, Castrol Edge is the thinnest and Mobil 1 ESP is the thickest and the Castrol Edge is what I would consider very close to a thick 0W-20 (KV maximum is 9.3) whereas the Mobil 1 ESP is almost a thin 0W-40 (KV minimum is 12.6).

Oil Brand	Viscosity	KV @100°C	HTHS @ 150°C
Castrol Edge	5W-30	10.0	3.0
Pennzoil Platinum	5W-30	10.3	---
Mobil 1 Extended Performance	5W-30	10.6	---
Valvoline Extended Protection	5W-30	10.7	3.2
Havoline Pro-DS	5W-30	10.8	---
Kendall GT-1	5W-30	11.0	3.1
Quaker State FS	5W-30	11.6	---
Rotella Gas Truck	5W-30	11.7	---
Mobil 1 ESP	0W-30	12.0	3.5
Mobil 1 Euro	0W-40	12.9	---

As you can see, there are and can be vast differences in oils which have a 0W-20 or 5W-30 viscosity, and this is why I call BS on those who say that the 3.6L VVT is "viscosity sensitive"--especially since I know a JL owner who has ran 0W-40 from the first oil change and has nearly 120K miles on the engine now.

There are oils which carry 0W-20 viscosity rating that can almost be a 5W-30 and there are 5W-30 oils which can almost be a 0W-20.

 

[TheRaven]

I struggle with that given there is so much variation in viscosity within any particular grade. You can have an xW-20 that is almost an xW-30 and vice-versa. I find it more than a little incredulous that a system is designed so tightly to depend on such a tight viscosity range. I could see if you were going from a xW-20 to an xW-40 or xW-50, but between a 20 and 30--it seems implausible the oil caused the issue unless ambient temperatures were a factor (extremely cold). I have posted this before, but worth a repeat:

...

There are oils which carry 0W-20 viscosity rating that can almost be a 5W-30 and there are 5W-30 oils which can almost be a 0W-20.

Of course, those specs are ranges. But your charts don't really show any inconsistencies. 0w-20 is 5.6-9.3 and 5w-30 is 9.3-12.5. So yeah, you could have a 0w-20 or a 5w-30 close to that 9.3...but that 9.3 isn't what the engineers who designed the motor are worried about...it's that 12.5. So by saying you must use 0w-20, they aren't saying that 9.4 is a problem, they're saying 12.5 is a problem.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Oil can be compared for wear resistance. The reader can make a chart to compare the oils if you read up. Most importantly just read about the data collected and test by an independent source. My go to source for readily available oils is 540 RAT @ https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
(Tip: Use RAT's search method to find your oil).
Example:
Compare 0W with 5W. Or see who make the most wear resistance oil for your choice of viscosity. Some are even test at elevated temperatures.
"Does your motor really need the most wear resistance oil on the list?". Or is one on the list that is high but not the best good enough? And of course can you get the stuff with a trip to town.

Rat's work has been debunked so many times I have lost count. I would put ZERO faith in the data he has. Go over to BobIsTheOilGuy and post how good his chart is and witness the dog pile...

 

[CarbonSteel]

Of course, those specs are ranges. But your charts don't really show any inconsistencies. 0w-20 is 5.6-9.3 and 5w-30 is 9.3-12.5. So yeah, you could have a 0w-20 or a 5w-30 close to that 9.3...but that 9.3 isn't what the engineers who designed the motor are worried about...it's that 12.5. So by saying you must use 0w-20, they aren't saying that 9.4 is a problem, they're saying 12.5 is a problem.

I would opine the actual problem is the overall design, but that is a conversation for another day.

For our 3.6L engines they are not viscosity sensitive at least from a 0W-20 up to a 0W-40...

 

[Valpo Jeep]

For my Audi I have to feed it VW 502 spec oil which is predominantly a 0W40 or a 5W40 oil depending on manufacture. The engine sounds better on the 5W40 oil but I have ran the 0W40 in the past. It is now at 231,000 miles. It does consume a but of oil which Audi says is normal but I am still on the original PCV / oil separator with it. Changing that is supposed to help with oil consumption but the damn krouts put it UNDERNEATH the supercharger. Someday I will replace it.

If you look at the table I posted earlier for the 3.6 the oil spec is 6395 which encompasses many weights and brands ranging from 0W20 to 10W30. They all meet spec, any can be used and not void the warranty (if you still have a warranty) Thinner will create a bit less rotational loss of efficiency and slightly better fuel economy, hence the recommendation to use 0W20. That weight is only a RECOMMENDATION, not a requirement. API spec meeting MS-6395 is their only REQUIREMENT.

 

[TheRaven]

I would opine the actual problem is the overall design, but that is a conversation for another day.

For our 3.6L engines they are not viscosity sensitive at least from a 0W-20 up to a 0W-40...

Conversely, 0W-20 isn't going to hurt the motor at all. That's the real problem - all these threads where members claim "0W-20 will lead to destruction!!!". BS. As long as you do the research and ask the right questions so you know the risks of using an oil other than specified, go right ahead. But also don't try to steer everyone else into taking the same risks.

Not saying that you did this, of course...it's just a general commentary on this thread type - a type that exists on every single car forum ever.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Conversely, 0W-20 isn't going to hurt the motor at all.

Agree, provided it is not operated at temperatures or levels that push the viscosity of xW-20 below 2.6HTHS.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Carbon steel said:
Rat's work has been debunked so many times I have lost count. I would put ZERO faith in the data he has. Go over to BobIsTheOilGuy and post how good his chart is and witness the dog pile...
== = =
bob the oil guy is all about members opinions. No science or real data at all
RAT is only testing for wear not all the other parameters regarding oil choice
Tell me another source for wear resistance not involving the company producing the oil..

There are tribilogists and engineers on that site with proven credentials so while there are some opinions, there is also a great deal of facts and the overall thoughts about Rat is his testing results have no merit.

Very easy to create a list of results, but quite another to provide repeatable and consistent data using industry standards and have it verified by an objective and qualified third party.

Rat's test results have not been verified by anyone much less a qualified third party, but are entertaining nonetheless....Quaker State FS is his #1 oil so there's that.

 

[jav_eee]

I change my oil every 6k because I want to. I feel that does a better job of “saving” the engine versus a specific oil weight.

I used Penzoil Platimun this time and I’ll be damned if my engine isn’t running smoother and quieter. Next experiment: 93 octane. ?

 

[Rodeoflyer]

Could be total coincidence, but the few vehicles I have driven with 0w20 all consume oil. At work I drive an '18 Silverado that was new at the time. Consumed 2 quarts between changes. Fleet guys said it was an issue with those vehicles. My jl seems to lose a quart between changes, especially if I'm doing some towing up the mountains during that interval. I saw some consumption like that with my last jk and 5w20. My TJ doesn't seem to lose a drop. 10w40 in the 4.0.

My concern was the wear difference i see in that test. Interesting results

You're losing it because the PCV system on the 3.6 sucks. I pour a 1/2 qt out of my catch can and it burns another 1/2 between 7500 mi oil changes.

The whole thing about 0W is startup wear, which is when your vehicle starts flowing lubricant and most of the wear occurs.

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