Will the BEV J70 be scrapped?

[Zandcwhite]

Yes, very slowly.

My daughter drove her VW ID-4 over shortly after buying it. I don't remember exactly how drained it was, but it was something under half full, so she plugged it into our 110v outlet. We were both shocked when it said it'd take 20 hours to top it off.

Yes, very slowly.

Guess how long it would take to bake a cake if you plugged your oven until a 120v, 15 amp circuit? Double the voltage and double the amperage and you cut that by 4x (and most homes have a dryer outlet even if you don't want to wire in a proper L2 charger).

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[Dusty Dude]

Guess how long it would take to bake a cake if you plugged your oven until a 120v, 15 amp circuit? Double the voltage and double the amperage and you cut that by 4x (and most homes have a dryer outlet even if you don't want to wire in a proper L2 charger).

Washer/dryer setups in the garage must be a California thing. I have never seen a house built that way in the northern states.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Washer/dryer setups in the garage must be a California thing. I have never seen a house built that way in the northern states.

I'm guessing it's not common in frozen locations as water freezes and most garages aren't heated (or maybe they are in places with crap weather). I'm guessing you don't put your water heaters in unheated garages either but that's super common here. And if it's just to charge a visitors vehicle you could run an extension cord. I'm guessing you still have a dryer outlet somewhere?

 

[Dusty Dude]

I'm guessing it's not common in frozen locations as water freezes and most garages aren't heated (or maybe they are in places with crap weather). I'm guessing you don't put your water heaters in unheated garages either but that's super common here. And if it's just to charge a visitors vehicle you could run an extension cord. I'm guessing you still have a dryer outlet somewhere?

Depending on the house, the washer/dryers can be in the basement, upstairs by the bedrooms, or in their own room on the main floor next to the garage or the kitchen.

Most dryers (and a lot of ovens) are gas, not electric, so most houses are 110V only. However, a few garages have a 220V outlet for a welder, which would be really convenient for charging.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Depending on the house, the washer/dryers can be in the basement, upstairs by the bedrooms, or in their own room on the main floor next to the garage or the kitchen.

Most dryers (and a lot of ovens) are gas, not electric, so most houses are 110V only. However, a few garages have a 220V outlet for a welder, which would be really convenient for charging.

I haven't seen a 110v service panel installed anywhere in the last 30 years as an electrician. Just because you only utilize single pole breakers doesn't mean your service isn't a standard 230v split phase. Look at your main breaker, it's a 2 pole for a reason. A 2 pole 50A breaker is all of $20. You have 230v.

 

[Dusty Dude]

I haven't seen a 110v service panel installed anywhere in the last 30 years as an electrician. Just because you only utilize single pole breakers doesn't mean your service isn't a standard 230v split phase. Look at your main breaker, it's a 2 pole for a reason. A 2 pole 50A breaker is all of $20. You have 230v.

Agreed, it is 230v. The really old houses were 50/60A panels, and the newer houses are 100/200A capacity. However, there were no 220v outputs wired out of the box because there was no use for one. The water heater, oven, and dryer were all gas. The 220v outlet can most certainly be added, but the cost will depend on where the panel is located in relation to the garage.

My current house has the panel in the garage, but all of my other previous homes had the panel on the opposite side of the house (in a utility room or the basement).

 

[Zandcwhite]

Agreed, it is 230v. The really old houses were 50/60A panels, and the newer houses are 100/200A capacity. However, there were no 220v outputs wired out of the box because there was no use for one. The water heater, oven, and dryer were all gas. The 220v outlet can most certainly be added, but the cost will depend on where the panel is located in relation to the garage.

My current house has the panel in the garage, but all of my other previous homes had the panel on the opposite side of the house (in a utility room or the basement).

If one was interested in buying an EV, the charger install cost really isn't much in the grand scheme of things. I know a set of tires for either Jeep would cost more. Don't even get me started on the fuel cost for a roadtrip at 13mpg. Sure it's easier and cheaper for some homes but it's not impossible. Add in the fact you're in a blue state, I'm guessing there are state and/or local rebates on the charger and the electricity will be at a discounted rate too.

 

[Ratbert]

Guess how long it would take to bake a cake if you plugged your oven until a 120v, 15 amp circuit? Double the voltage and double the amperage and you cut that by 4x (and most homes have a dryer outlet even if you don't want to wire in a proper L2 charger).

Ok, so she would have had to stick around for 6 to 8 hours to charge it. That's after she drove it up a floor and into the middle of the house to get close enough to the dryer outlet. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Ok, so she would have had to stick around for 6 to 8 hours to charge it. That's after she drove it up a floor and into the middle of the house to get close enough to the dryer outlet. Makes perfect sense.

If only 230v extension cords existed...
I'm guessing she didn't need 100% charge to get where she was going being that it still had half a charge when it got there? 3 hours plugged into a proper outlet would likely get it to 80-90% as it's the last 10% that really slows down. Obviously a quality L2 charger would be the preferred way, but there are alternatives. I use a 50A cord for my welder and therefore have those plugs at each panel at the house and a 100' extension cord in case I need to weld in the driveway or alley behind the house so yes there are viable options even if you don't have an EV charger installed.

 

[av8or]

The argument that getting a charger installed is cost prohibitive is just silly and anyone that’s actually looked into it knows that. I bought a kinda high dollar charger ($750) because my power company gave me a $500 rebate for getting it, but a perfectly adequate level 2 can be bought at Costco for $399 or less. Installation can be done by the homeowner if desired, but since it was only $650 for an electrician to do it, I trusted a pro to handle it. All in I spent $900 and have zero regrets, it’s paid for itself many times. I fill up the Rivian at home for ~$10.

 

[BXFXJeep]

What are the pitfalls of the PHEV vs the HEV of the MAX system though? That's the part I don't see in your entire argument. It's the sane system with a larger battery and a plug in OPTION. It never needs to be plugged in and in fact will function exactly like the HEV MAX system if you don't. The bigger battery has more weight but beyond that I can't think of a single pitfall? Why anyone would want to remove the option to plug it in is beyond me especially in a vehicle this size. What would they gain? Nothing. In fact with most HEVs they even downsize the electric motor pretty substantially vs the plug in version which is the reason I'd by the PHEV prius or niro over their HEV counterparts 1st and foremost. I'll gladly give up 1 mpg for 40 horsepower. And then I have the ability to plug it in...or not.

HEVs use a smaller electric motor that is a lot less power hungry because the motor is only there to assist, PHEVs require a larger and powerful electric motor, because the electric motor is the sole propulsion in EV mode.

the bigger PHEV battery adds a lot more expense and complexity, the PHEV battery requires a management system to maintain it, Toyota HEVs on the other hand use a simple fan to cool battery, the PHEV battery requires heating and refrigeration system to manage the temperature, especially in the cold.

PHEVs also require a separate heating system for the cabin when in electric mode, regular HEVs don't need that.

All HEV are not the same, and serve different purposes, the Prius/RAV4 etc are efficiency based hybrids, where electrification is used consistently across the whole drive spectrum, that is how they achieve that kind of mpg.

The iForce MAX is what is referred to as a performance hybrid, where the gas engine bears the load, and the electric system just add boost as needed, sorta like an electric assist.

The MAX also have a basic fan cooling the little simpler nickel battery used for the hybrid system, the likes of the 4xe have a complex heating and cooling system to manage the large expensive lithium battery.

Toyota MAX uses the small electric motor to torque fill as it waits for the turbo to spool up, then gas engine takes the load, if more power is need the electric motor chips in.

For Toyota to make the iForce MAX into a PHEV, Toyota will have to remove the starter, and add another MGU, they also need a completely different transmission with a big electric motor, the current 48 HP electric motor won't work, then there is cooling and heating systems etc, and a massive battery.

 

[Zandcwhite]

HEVs use a smaller electric motor that is a lot less power hungry because the motor is only there to assist, PHEVs require a larger and powerful electric motor, because the electric motor is the sole propulsion in EV mode.

the bigger PHEV battery adds a lot more expense and complexity, the PHEV battery requires a management system to maintain it, Toyota HEVs on the other hand use a simple fan to cool battery, the PHEV battery requires heating and refrigeration system to manage the temperature, especially in the cold.

PHEVs also require a separate heating system for the cabin when in electric mode, regular HEVs don't need that.

All HEV are not the same, and serve different purposes, the Prius/RAV4 etc are efficiency based hybrids, where electrification is used consistently across the whole drive spectrum, that is how they achieve that kind of mpg.

The iForce MAX is what is referred to as a performance hybrid, where the gas engine bears the load, and the electric system just add boost as needed, sorta like an electric assist.

The MAX also have a basic fan cooling the little simpler nickel battery used for the hybrid system, the likes of the 4xe have a complex heating and cooling system to manage the large expensive lithium battery.

Toyota MAX uses the small electric motor to torque fill as it waits for the turbo to spool up, then gas engine takes the load, if more power is need the electric motor chips in.

For Toyota to make the iForce MAX into a PHEV, Toyota will have to remove the starter, and add another MGU, they also need a completely different transmission with a big electric motor, the current 48 HP electric motor won't work, then there is cooling and heating systems etc, and a massive battery.

That's a lot of talking... ever look at the mild hybrid system known as etorque? Most of those pitfalls of PHEVs you just described are in that system including the separate cooling system. All the complexity and drawbacks.... with almost no gain. I'll take the bigger electric motor and battery and OPTION to plug it in if I'm already getting the added complexity, extra cooling system, etc. You don't save as much as you think you do by removing the plug, shrinking the battery, and putting in a snake and less effective motor period. That's why the cost difference between the HEV versions and PHEV versions is only a few grand and the PHEV version sells better.

 

[Ron Texas]

That's a lot of talking... ever look at the mild hybrid system known as etorque? Most of those pitfalls of PHEVs you just described are in that system including the separate cooling system. All the complexity and drawbacks.... with almost no gain. I'll take the bigger electric motor and battery and OPTION to plug it in if I'm already getting the added complexity, extra cooling system, etc. You don't save as much as you think you do by removing the plug, shrinking the battery, and putting in a snake and less effective motor period. That's why the cost difference between the HEV versions and PHEV versions is only a few grand and the PHEV version sells better.

If you have never driven an eTorque V6 you shouldn't say anything about it. Drivability is far better than a V6 without it. Stop/Start is so seamless you never have to even think about turning it off. There is an extra oomph when starting out and downshifts are also seamless. There is a cooling system, but it's trivial. It's simply false to say most of the pitfalls of PHEV apply to it. Mercedes adopted eTorque for this year's G-Wagon.

 

[Zandcwhite]

If you have never driven an eTorque V6 you shouldn't say anything about it. Drivability is far better than a V6 without it. Stop/Start is so seamless you never have to even think about turning it off. There is an extra oomph when starting out and downshifts are also seamless. There is a cooling system, but it's trivial. It's simply false to say most of the pitfalls of PHEV apply to it. Mercedes adopted eTorque for this year's G-Wagon.

We have 2 3.6L powered Jeeps in the driveway. Aside from the smoother so starts the rest of what you claim isn't even noticeable driving the 2 back to back. Shifts are no smoother, there definitely is no extra oomph on take offs. 0-60 is the same. It's placebo effect at best if you think it's game changing. The fact that it doesn't improve mpg in the slightest, even in city driving, prices is not doing much. The 4xe has extra oomph and the much improved 0-60 to prove it. Etorque does so little it can't be measured...impressive.

 

[BXFXJeep]

That's a lot of talking... ever look at the mild hybrid system known as etorque? Most of those pitfalls of PHEVs you just described are in that system including the separate cooling system. All the complexity and drawbacks.... with almost no gain. I'll take the bigger electric motor and battery and OPTION to plug it in if I'm already getting the added complexity, extra cooling system, etc. You don't save as much as you think you do by removing the plug, shrinking the battery, and putting in a snake and less effective motor period. That's why the cost difference between the HEV versions and PHEV versions is only a few grand and the PHEV version sells better.

Like you yourself stated the Jeep mild hybrid eTorque have zero gain for a lot of complexity, it's a joke masquerading as a hybrid, and people that know steered clear of it, Jeep forced it on people with the way they configure the packages. They removed it from the 2.0T for no reason when the 4xe came out, probably because it would have cost more than the 4xe, and that is before tax payers subsidies

But I hope you not trying to compare that eTorque con game to the various Toyota hybrid systems

If you are talking about the 4xe selling better than the eTorque, it's because the Wrangler 4xe actually have value, coupled with the government subsidies and massive discounts, Stellantis is giving away PHEVs for cheap because of their fleet CO2 emissions, it's either they do that, or pay Tesla even more for carbon credits, or pay thousands per vehicle in penalties, they are giving away the hornet PHEV and people are running in the other direction.

Bottomline is you still don't understand the basic difference between a HEV and a complex PHEV, you still think a HEV is a PHEV without a charger and big battery, when it is not, you keep talking about a big electric motor is better than a "less effective" motor, not understanding the purpose for the electric motor choices in a HEV vs PHEV.

A PHEV generally have limited benefits when it comes to something like a Prius or RAV4, and, you yourself do not charge your Prius because there is no benefit when it get amazing mpg.

Generally people buying a Prius is about MPG, not a powerful package to race Civics at the red lights.

In simple terms PHEV is mainly to facilitate all electric driving, if you don't care for that, or complexity or expensive repairs, steer clear of PHEVs.

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