Will the BEV J70 be scrapped?

[av8or]

It was stupid of me to expect an intelligent response. Lesson learned.

Your not stupid, now let us all know what the proper genius response should have been to your post.

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[BXFXJeep]

It's exactly like an HEV... with a plug in OPTION. It's in the name for Christ sake. It's not an HEV car. It will never get 50+ mpg even if you plug it in. It's still a jeep, but it is a hybrid electric drivetrain period. Even if never plugged in it will have added power, longer brake life, regenerative braking, etc like every hybrid wether plug in or not. Your the only person I've ever seen argue that to be an HEV it has to be fuel efficient. The new land cruiser is an HEV... and gets terrible fuel economy like every large 4x4 suv. You're flat wing period.

In the simplest of terms

HEVs generally use the electric system to improve mpg, PHEV use the electric system not to run the gas engine, some claim that as being efficient, PHEV like the 4xe efficiency is basically not running the gas guzzler in the city at 15 mpg. That is why the the PHEV is considered a ZEV and the HEV is not, and the ZEV gets tax payers subsidies, and the HEV does not.

Over time these terminology have become a mix match of utter bullshit to ultimately scam the taxpayers, none more so than the likes of the 4xe, imagine the government paying people to buy a gas guzzler.

All hybridization should be taken in context, the previous Land Cruiser got 14 mpg from a big V8, the new LC with the iForce gets 24 mpg, that's a whopping 60% mpg improvement over the old V8 it replaced.

 

[Ron Texas]

If the EV tax credit is repealed and CAFE standards lowered the 4xe will be history. CARB states will allow a limited percentage of plug in hybrids which must go 50 miles solely on the battery so there will not be a market there. The separate set of rules for CARB states is on the chopping block too.

 

[Zandcwhite]

In the simplest of terms

HEVs generally use the electric system to improve mpg, PHEV use the electric system not to run the gas engine, some claim that as being efficient, PHEV like the 4xe efficiency is basically not running the gas guzzler in the city at 15 mpg. That is why the the PHEV is considered a ZEV and the HEV is not, and the ZEV gets tax payers subsidies, and the HEV does not.

Over time these terminology have become a mix match of utter bullshit to ultimately scam the taxpayers, none more so than the likes of the 4xe, imagine the government paying people to buy a gas guzzler.

All hybridization should be taken in context, the previous Land Cruiser got 14 mpg from a big V8, the new LC with the iForce gets 24 mpg, that's a whopping 60% mpg improvement over the old V8 it replaced.

The Tacoma and 4runner get the same HEV and just like the 4xe if you don't plug it in it's for all the other benefits like more power, regenerative braking, etc the same as the 4xe. It's almost like they figured out you can get 4 cylinder efficiency with v8 torque by adding an electric motor/hybrid system? It's not making the vehicle magically require less energy to do the work it's utilized for. The only difference is the size of the battery pack and the plug. Otherwise the 2 systems are the same in function period. If you cut the battery by 85% and removed the plug obviously you'd gain a little bit of mpg... and the rest would be no different than the benefits of a 4xe even if you don't plug it in. You're the one that argued some huge difference in design and function and "you can't use a 4xe like an HEV"... and those 3 Toyotas directly prove my point since you can't accept the proof from the vehicles like the prius and niro that exist in both HEV and PHEV.

 

[Ratbert]

Your not stupid, now let us all know what the proper genius response should have been to your post.

By explaining how "many Rivians have completed the Trans-America trail without generators." Maybe you meant that they didn't bring generators along?

 

[av8or]

By explaining how "many Rivians have completed the Trans-America trail without generators." Maybe you meant that they didn't bring generators along?

Maybe.

 

[BXFXJeep]

The Tacoma and 4runner get the same HEV and just like the 4xe if you don't plug it in it's for all the other benefits like more power, regenerative braking, etc the same as the 4xe. It's almost like they figured out you can get 4 cylinder efficiency with v8 torque by adding an electric motor/hybrid system? It's not making the vehicle magically require less energy to do the work it's utilized for. The only difference is the size of the battery pack and the plug. Otherwise the 2 systems are the same in function period. If you cut the battery by 85% and removed the plug obviously you'd gain a little bit of mpg... and the rest would be no different than the benefits of a 4xe even if you don't plug it in. You're the one that argued some huge difference in design and function and "you can't use a 4xe like an HEV"... and those 3 Toyotas directly prove my point since you can't accept the proof from the vehicles like the prius and niro that exist in both HEV and PHEV.

The difference between the Prius and the iForce MAX is the Prius uses electrification for low power application resulting in significantly better mpg.

The iForce uses electrification to boost power, like the 4xe it uses an electric motor between the transmission and gas engine, the MAX achieves 40 more horses and 100 more torque, more power for a little less mpg, a completely different set up from their gas sipping Synergy Drive system.

The Synergy hybrid system is for mpg gains, the MAX is for added power

Yes the MAX system is similar to the 4xe PHEV system without all the PHEV pitfalls.

Toyota MAX is designed to run without charging, the 4xe is designed to be charged, serving two different purposes, but nothing says you cannot drive the 4xe without charging, would you want to, well you need to understand the downside of using a PHEV like that.

So with a PHEV like the 4xe you get more power for somewhat similar MPG, that's it, manufacturers have long been boosting power using electrification, but it comes at a price of expensive complication, and it's more of a up market play than the economical play.

Notice the likes of the 4Runner offer the non hybrid version for obvious reasons.

 

[BXFXJeep]

If the EV tax credit is repealed and CAFE standards lowered the 4xe will be history. CARB states will allow a limited percentage of plug in hybrids which must go 50 miles solely on the battery so there will not be a market there. The separate set of rules for CARB states is on the chopping block too.

GM wants out from the EV scheme

 

[Zandcwhite]

The difference between the Prius and the iForce MAX is the Prius uses electrification for low power application resulting in significantly better mpg.

The iForce uses electrification to boost power, like the 4xe it uses an electric motor between the transmission and gas engine, the MAX achieves 40 more horses and 100 more torque, more power for a little less mpg, a completely different set up from their gas sipping Synergy Drive system.

The Synergy hybrid system is for mpg gains, the MAX is for added power

Yes the MAX system is similar to the 4xe PHEV system without all the PHEV pitfalls.

Toyota MAX is designed to run without charging, the 4xe is designed to be charged, serving two different purposes, but nothing says you cannot drive the 4xe without charging, would you want to, well you need to understand the downside of using a PHEV like that.

So with a PHEV like the 4xe you get more power for somewhat similar MPG, that's it, manufacturers have long been boosting power using electrification, but it comes at a price of expensive complication, and it's more of a up market play than the economical play.

Notice the likes of the 4Runner offer the non hybrid version for obvious reasons.

What are the pitfalls of the PHEV vs the HEV of the MAX system though? That's the part I don't see in your entire argument. It's the sane system with a larger battery and a plug in OPTION. It never needs to be plugged in and in fact will function exactly like the HEV MAX system if you don't. The bigger battery has more weight but beyond that I can't think of a single pitfall? Why anyone would want to remove the option to plug it in is beyond me especially in a vehicle this size. What would they gain? Nothing. In fact with most HEVs they even downsize the electric motor pretty substantially vs the plug in version which is the reason I'd by the PHEV prius or niro over their HEV counterparts 1st and foremost. I'll gladly give up 1 mpg for 40 horsepower. And then I have the ability to plug it in...or not.

 

[cansberry]

What are the pitfalls of the PHEV vs the HEV of the MAX system though? That's the part I don't see in your entire argument. It's the sane system with a larger battery and a plug in OPTION. It never needs to be plugged in and in fact will function exactly like the HEV MAX system if you don't. The bigger battery has more weight but beyond that I can't think of a single pitfall? Why anyone would want to remove the option to plug it in is beyond me especially in a vehicle this size. What would they gain? Nothing. In fact with most HEVs they even downsize the electric motor pretty substantially vs the plug in version which is the reason I'd by the PHEV prius or niro over their HEV counterparts 1st and foremost. I'll gladly give up 1 mpg for 40 horsepower. And then I have the ability to plug it in...or not.

This is partially untrue. Due to the nature of a PHEV system, the gas engine doesn't always have the ability to keep the reserve efficiently charged, so will enter essentially a charging cycle, which will increase load on the engine to restore the battery to the stwady run state. I've noticed this when I've taken longer trips in my 4xe and it absolutely demolishes fuel economy. A HEV doesn't have this same restriction, and can more easily maintain charge on its smaller battery packs.

 

[cansberry]

To the original point, I hope Jeep keeps the BEV. And if they don't, I'll wait for whenever they get to it. I'm sold on electrification.

It was noted in a recent survey, this forum tends to be on average a lot older than me, so while I see the grumblings about wanting/needing gas or diesel, I know at least in my circles electrification is what most people want in their next car. Jeep would be making a mistake not offering it, and at a good price to appeal to a market that will age out. Lord already knows younger people are priced out of them. I just got fortunate with a good job out the gate.

 

[alphawolff]

To the original point, I hope Jeep keeps the BEV. And if they don't, I'll wait for whenever they get to it. I'm sold on electrification.

It was noted in a recent survey, this forum tends to be on average a lot older than me, so while I see the grumblings about wanting/needing gas or diesel, I know at least in my circles electrification is what most people want in their next car. Jeep would be making a mistake not offering it, and at a good price to appeal to a market that will age out. Lord already knows younger people are priced out of them. I just got fortunate with a good job out the gate.

The issue isn't the availability of offering an option, it's the reliability. I agree with a younger generation wanting EVs in general, but the market (country, especially) isn't ready for a full EV take over yet. The reliability isn't there yet, nor is the infrastructure.

You think "Hey, a fully BEV jeep would be cool!" until you're back at the shop for the 7th time in the first three months for a multitude of issues. Our engineers flat out aren't capable of creating a platform that's reliable enough for main stream use yet. Hell, most OEMs are just bumbling their way through incredibly unreliable BEVs. Ford is a shit show just like us.

Selling more units doesn't really matter when you're losing the profits in warranty repairs plus reputation damage. The 4XE is a prime example of this. I'd love to see what their balance sheets look like, especially once we start replacing all the batteries. Some areas have a 10 year/150k warranty on the *entire* hybrid system. They NEED to offer insanely long, unprofitable warranties, or they wouldn't make any sales. It's why used PHEV/BEV cars tank so hard in price compared to new.

 

[cansberry]

The issue isn't the availability of offering an option, it's the reliability. I agree with a younger generation wanting EVs in general, but the market (country, especially) isn't ready for a full EV take over yet. The reliability isn't there yet, nor is the infrastructure.

You think "Hey, a fully BEV jeep would be cool!" until you're back at the shop for the 7th time in the first three months for a multitude of issues. Our engineers flat out aren't capable of creating a platform that's reliable enough for main stream use yet. Hell, most OEMs are just bumbling their way through incredibly unreliable BEVs. Ford is a shit show just like us.

Selling more units doesn't really matter when you're losing the profits in warranty repairs plus reputation damage. The 4XE is a prime example of this. I'd love to see what their balance sheets look like, especially once we start replacing all the batteries. Some areas have a 10 year/150k warranty on the *entire* hybrid system. They NEED to offer insanely long, unprofitable warranties, or they wouldn't make any sales. It's why used PHEV/BEV cars tank so hard in price compared to new.

Infrastructure, absolutely. But I'll disagree on most other points. Stellantis can't even build gas powered cars. From an engineering perspectice, the 4xe is fine, if not downright reliable. So is the 3.6, 2.0 and 392. But they all have problems because the factory is crap shoot. QC doesn't exist for the mechanical bits. And it comes down to corporate jerking the line workers around so much. People appreciate stuff like the 4runner because it's made in Japan. The reason that means something is because their employee turnover is incredibly low. Not so much here.

EVs are also simpler mechanically. There's less to go wrong. Ford is a bad example, because they just presently suck at building cars. I don't think there's a single vehicle or platform, gas or otherwise, that they've launched in the last decade that hasn't been subject to massive recalls. Hyundai/Kia are also known for poor quality, but their EVs are doing great on reliability while their gas cars still sometimes spontaneously combust. GM screwed up the software. Teslas seem fine, but that's a mature EV brand. But look at newcomers. Rivian builds a pretty dang reliable product. I'm willing to bet the new Slate will be as well. Because the moving parts are vastly more simple, and require less to run the whole show than current gas powered vehicles.

I think a BEV could make a lot of sense for Jeep, in conjunction with other powertrains, which seems to be Stellantis strategy. EVs or REVs offer instant torque and less parts to go wrong. They offer other issues, but I think the biggest hurdle is just companies making idiotic long term decisions for quarterly earnings.

 

[Zandcwhite]

By explaining how "many Rivians have completed the Trans-America trail without generators." Maybe you meant that they didn't bring generators along?

It's playing semantics at that point, that's like saying I've done the Rubicon a dozen times without bringing gas. Everyone knows that means I didn't need extra fuel not that my Jeeps had empty tanks and ran on magic. At this point aside from trails that are too hard for the likes of the rivian pretty much any trail can be run by an EV or an ICE vehicle. There's charging all over the place, and even if there isn't a regular 110V outlet will work...slowly.

 

[Ratbert]

There's charging all over the place, and even if there isn't a regular 110V outlet will work...slowly.

Yes, very slowly.

My daughter drove her VW ID-4 over shortly after buying it. I don't remember exactly how drained it was, but it was something under half full, so she plugged it into our 110v outlet. We were both shocked when it said it'd take 20 hours to top it off.

Yes, very slowly.

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