Sunrider position pointless?

[Firemadz]

As the OP, I am designating myself arbiter.

@Macchiato ,

The sticker on your vehicle is not telling you to run your Jeep in sunrider position without windows, it is telling you to not to attempt to muscle the top from sunrider to fully down by forcing it toward the rear of the vehicle (hence red arrow pointing rearward) without releasing the latch in the rear of the soft top. At least one person replied saying they do not have this sticker. Many have bent their softop frames by attempting to do this. I’m sure that is why this warning was added.

The supplemental guide you photographed in your original post clearly contradicts the instructions in the Owner’s Manual. No one else has responded saying they got the same booklet. I know I didn’t with my Jeep built in February, so maybe it’s something brand new. Can you please photograph the front cover of the supplemental guide where it shows the contradictory information advising to skip to steps 3 and 4 for sunrider mode? WHEN YOU POST IT MAKE SURE IT IS RIGHT SIDE UP PLEASE!

Lastly, your Jeep came with this supplemental booklet as well as a User’s Guide. A User’s Guide is not the same thing as an Owner’s Manual. If it were the same thing, the first page wouldn’t give instructions on how to view the Owner’s Manual, nor would it continually instruct you to “refer to the owner’s manual”. The actual Owner’s Manual for 2019 can be found using the following link, which was also shared by several other people in this thread including JeepCares (it is 694 pages long, whereas your User’s Guide is 294 pages):

https://msmownerassets.z13.web.core...blications/en-us/Jeep/2019/Wrangler/10390.pdf


I’m glad you shared this booklet and I wish things didn’t get so confused. @JeepCares needs to address why Jeep is including literature contradicting the Owner’s Manual.

@JeepCares has no clue about anything, as has been evidenced in almost every generic reply they give on this forum. No offense to them, but I doubt that’s their job. I’ve had open cases with them, and even working with a dealer, been unable to properly resolve the issues.

That said, this thread is utterly ridiculous, the way people are talking to each other. Jeepers are supposed to be a close community, not act like ignorant assholes to each other.

As I posted before, the manual does NOT explicitly say to not drive in sunrider with rear windows installed. People claiming otherwise are inferring something incorrectly, as it has been repeatedly proven that there is no harm in driving this way. Big you want to claim otherwise, then feel free to do it your way.

Finally, I bought a JLUR last summer, and had no supplement, nor did I have an owners manual, guide, or whatever you want to call it. Last week, however, I purchased a leftover 2018 Sahara, and this one did have the referenced addendum card in the glovebox, stating to skip the rear window removal steps for sunrider.

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[OldGuyNewJeep]

This gif is pointless, just like the arguments in this thread.

Leave those windows in and toss open that top; it’s spring!

 

[Dogboyslim]

@JeepCares has no clue about anything, as has been evidenced in almost every generic reply they give on this forum.

In fairness to @JeepCares, I’m confident in many cases they know more but are restricted in what they can say. I suspect their job is to act as a liaison to the market, learn what issues we have and report back to their marketing/design group, and also to assist in the limited scope of what they can do. I agree they post generic answers, but I do not think they deserve the negative suggestion you have applied to them above. My $.02

 

[Rahneld]

@JeepCares has no clue about anything, as has been evidenced in almost every generic reply they give on this forum. No offense to them, but I doubt that’s their job. I’ve had open cases with them, and even working with a dealer, been unable to properly resolve the issues.

That said, this thread is utterly ridiculous, the way people are talking to each other. Jeepers are supposed to be a close community, not act like ignorant assholes to each other.

As I posted before, the manual does NOT explicitly say to not drive in sunrider with rear windows installed. People claiming otherwise are inferring something incorrectly, as it has been repeatedly proven that there is no harm in driving this way. Big you want to claim otherwise, then feel free to do it your way.

Finally, I bought a JLUR last summer, and had no supplement, nor did I have an owners manual, guide, or whatever you want to call it. Last week, however, I purchased a leftover 2018 Sahara, and this one did have the referenced addendum card in the glovebox, stating to skip the rear window removal steps for sunrider.

Joe, I agree that as a group we could have all been more pleasant, but for you to say the manual does NOT explicity say to not drive in Sunrider with rear windows installed...let's clear that up by getting rid of two NOTs, struck out below....

"The manual does NOT explicitly say to not drive in Sunrider with rear windows installed," I---if that's what you meant-- disagree with that . It does not endorse or sight this practice; in fact it expressly endorses removal of the soft windows first.

I think that's what you might have been saying. I don't mean to be pendantic, just make sure we're on the same accurate page.

Again, I think this is all academic until it ends up in court and FCA is quoting their owner's manual chapter and verse and the included "for additional information refer to the owner's manual" verbiage on all other supporting materials, written in there in case someone contradicts the manual.

As for @JeepCares, it's unlikely they'll acknowledge the contradictory materials, and have you refer to the manual, as they did, because it's not only the de-facto source of info, but removing said windows and storing them, as the manual says, makes the litigation of them being a flying road hazard a non-issue for FCA., putting the onus on the owner/operator.

JeepCares may or may not be the last word on answers, but they have access at higher levels of care to those at FCA that are.

 

[digitalbliss]

Joe, I agree that as a group we could have all been more pleasant, but for you to say the manual does NOT explicity say to not drive in Sunrider with rear windows installed...let's clear that up by getting rid of two NOTs, struck out below....

"The manual does NOT explicitly say to not drive in Sunrider with rear windows installed," I---if that's what you meant-- disagree with that . It does not endorse or sight this practice; in fact it expressly endorses removal of the soft windows first.

I think that's what you might have been saying. I don't mean to be pendantic, just make sure we're on the same accurate page.

Again, I think this is all academic until it ends up in court and FCA is quoting their owner's manual chapter and verse and the included "for additional information refer to the owner's manual" verbiage on all other supporting materials, written in there in case someone contradicts the manual.

As for @JeepCares, it's unlikely they'll acknowledge the contradictory materials, and have you refer to the manual, as they did, because it's not only the de-facto source of info, but removing said windows and storing them, as the manual says, makes the litigation of them being a flying road hazard a non-issue for FCA., putting the onus on the owner/operator.

JeepCares may or may not be the last word on answers, but they have access at higher levels of care to those at FCA that are.

Lol, "in court".

 

[Rahneld]

Lol, "in court".

I'll agree to laugh based on the probability of windows getting blown off. But sometimes stuff happens, especially when people don't follow the manual (the subject of this thread) when it comes to installing said windows, possibly increasing the odds of such things.

As for litigation, perhaps you are aware, you would not believe the crap people sue big companies for. Angry people pay retainers. Less the fully honest or capable attorneys take their money and start proceedings.

This isn't a dig against the good/honest attorneys who would say to not waste a client's money on them, to pursue a case that can't be won.

And big companies from time to time definitely do actionable things.

Granted--there was much more to this case that was relevant than these facts, but we're all aware of the women who collected large sums from McDonalds from spilling their coffee on herself and getting bad burns in "bad places."

..as if its unreasonable for people to assume hot coffee hot, or vehicular storage between one's legs is a bad idea......

 

[srt20]

I actually drove around today in sunrider position with all rear windows in. I had no idea that this is, or is not an issue, until tonight and I decided to check this thread out.
What a shitshow.
Well, I will still drive around like that, but I may be more cautious at higher speeds, and maybe just shut it at highway speeds.

Either way I just want to make a post so I could add, FULL STOP!

LMAO!

 

[Firemadz]

Ironically, pulled this screenshot off Jeep’s website.

 

[ThirtyOne]

I have a 4/2018 build date and I got the card in my glove box with the contradictory instructions so It is not new. I just ran across it yesterday while I was cleaning out the glove box.

Full disclosure I have never read my owner's manual. I rely on youtube for Jeep maintenance and pretty much everything else in my life.

 

[cjaama]

I'll agree to laugh based on the probability of windows getting blown off. But sometimes stuff happens, especially when people don't follow the manual (the subject of this thread) when it comes to installing said windows, possibly increasing the odds of such things.

I had posted a link earlier in this thread with multiple people saying their windows have blown out. Only one of them occurred while in sunrider position. They may have all had their windows installed improperly, but nobody knows.
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/soft-top-window-blowing-out.12507/

I drove yesterday in sunrider position and windows in on the highway. I don’t think I’ll do more than 60 like that, but it seemed fine. I cracked all four windows to help reduce pressure. I also have a full length Alienshade, which usually helps keep air flow/pressure out of the cabin.

 

[Rahneld]

I had posted a link earlier in this thread with multiple people saying their windows have blown out. Only one of them occurred while in sunrider position. They may have all had their windows installed improperly, but nobody knows.
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/soft-top-window-blowing-out.12507/

I drove yesterday in sunrider position and windows in on the highway. I don’t think I’ll do more than 60 like that, but it seemed fine. I cracked all four windows to help reduce pressure. I also have a full length Alienshade, which usually helps keep air flow/pressure out of the cabin.

I think we can agree Chris that much of the FCA documentation suggesting the window removal practice is probably geared around people not apt to educate themselves on things about the JL. These same people, the most likely group to not install soft windows properly, ironically enough because they don't read the manual, I suspect was why such soft window removal language was written into the manual to cover FCA's butt.

I am all for plantiff's damages when it comes to product defect, and companies do plenty of things to maximize profit that put consumers at greater risk. But I am not for awards being handed out to people who don't follow instructions and that, when the "fit hits the shan" seek to point fingers of blame at those with the deepest pockets rather at the source of the problem (often themselves): which by the way is as much FCA as it is us, its consumers, who share litigation costs, in part, with FCA, in higher prices.

I simply don't see properly installed and working soft windows blowing out of their "C" channels. But to your original point of 'why stop at Sunrider position seeing as FCA only blesses it with soft windows removed,' you are precisely correct.

While we can debate the degree to which this is pedantic, we cannot debate that this is correct procedure and logical reasoning on your part. : - )

Cheers

 

[Firemadz]

I think we can agree Chris that much of the FCA documentation suggesting the window removal practice is probably geared around people not apt to educate themselves on things about the JL. These same people, the most likely group to not install soft windows properly, ironically enough because they don't read the manual, I suspect was why such soft window removal language was written into the manual to cover FCA's butt.

I am all for plantiff's damages when it comes to product defect, and companies do plenty of things to maximize profit that put consumers at greater risk. But I am not for awards being handed out to people who don't follow instructions and that, when the "fit hits the shan" seek to point fingers of blame at those with the deepest pockets rather at the source of the problem (often themselves): which by the way is as much FCA as it is us, its consumers, who share litigation costs, in part, with FCA, in higher prices.

I simply don't see properly installed and working soft windows blowing out of their "C" channels. But to your original point of 'why stop at Sunrider position seeing as FCA only blesses it with soft windows removed,' you are precisely correct.

While we can debate the degree to which this is pedantic, we cannot debate that this is correct procedure and logical reasoning on your part. : - )

Cheers

Again, it is NOT correct procedure nor explicitly stated.

 

[cjaama]

I knew I read something about this debate before. Someone even makes the same assessment I originally did (sunrider is pointless if you have to remove the windows)...
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/soft-top-sunrider-position.6853/page-2#post-319721

 

[Rahneld]

Again, it is NOT correct procedure nor explicitly stated.

Joe. You like double negatives. I don't know why, they only make things less clear.

Here are the facts. They are supported by a wide consensus of people on this thread, @JeepCares , and any basic read of the 2018 manual (which I've read), and the 2019 manual as told to me by long standing forum members whose opinions (e.g. @Jebiruph) I highly regard.

Maybe this is what you are saying and I'm getting lost in your obfuscation, deliberate or not, but, here goes:

Before putting your soft top in Sunrider position, FCA unequivocally and expressly requires, as per their de-facto source, the owner's manual, that soft windows be removed first. Page 114 of the 2018 manual, which deals with Sunrider positioning, reads "after removing the rear window and quarter panel windows....."

You are welcome to argue the logic behind this. I don't follow it myself. But any claim you may be making that this procedure is not indicated is wrong, even if you can find FCA supplemental literature that says otherwise (it was introduced in this thread,) and even if this supplemental literature fails to have language (and it probably does) akin to "refer to the owner's manual for further details."

I wish, if your claim in fact is that the soft windows need not be removed before putting the soft top in Sunrider position, that you were right.

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

He knew everything there was to know about his Jeep, except how to enjoy it.

Pardon me, fellas, while I drive home in sunrider position with my windows in place... who the hell cares about your manual??

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