Maximize 3.6 Reliability

[roaniecowpony]

The dilemma for those who are still under warranty is that the owners manual calls for 0W20 with the API starburst symbol. If you use some other viscosity like 5w20 or 0w30 or a non-API-certified oil (such as Amsoil) and you end up with an engine problem, the dealer can point to the incorrect oil being used and deny warranty coverage of the failed lubricated part. Using an oil that is arguably more protective and better for engine longevity but does not meet the manufacturer's written specification may lead to warranty denial. The bad part is they hold all the cards and your arguments for why the failure was not caused by your choice of oil will go unheard. It is a dilemma that is playing out in my head as I approach my first oil change.

This is about as abstract as saying the sidewall of the tire blew out because you used air instead of nitrogen. Point to a test for USED motor oil that can reliably detect original viscosity rating, together with an example of a dealer/manufacturer using such a test, and denying a warranty claim specifically for a viscosity deviation. My opinion is that you won't find it, because dealers/manufacturers won't go beyond a look at the dipstick and oil change interval resets resident in the vehicle's computer NVM. There's a lot of hand-wringing paranoia about this with no basis in fact.

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[Flip]

While not a cheap solution, have the dealer do the oil change then when you get home drain and refill to the viscosity of your choosing.

Good idea! ?

 

[Willys41]

You really want to extend the life of your jeep
Check this out
http://www.rpmextreme.com/Product/311/Jeep-JL-PWM-FAN-CONTROLLER.aspx
I have one on my 2020 Willys and am putting one on my 2018 Rubicon
I no longer see coolant temps as high a 231 or higher and my oil temps are also much lower
Average coolant 188 to 200 / oil temps 190 to 200
After the JL-PWM-FAN-CONTROLLER the highest coolant temps I have seen was 212 and that was on a long uphill clime on HW 80 to Lake Tahoe
On the Rubicon trail the highest it got was 201 and Averaged about 190
I was also surprised when I went to empty my UPR oil catch can
Left is before the JL-PWM-FAN-CONTROLLER
Right is after the JL-PWM-FAN-CONTROLLER
Both times was a trip to the Rubicon trails and about the same millage
I can only assume that with lower oil temps less oil atomization or oil mist in the crank case and less oil being picked up by the PCV system
More testing. But this looks good

 

[Badunit]

Point to a test for USED motor oil that can reliably detect original viscosity rating, together with an example of a dealer/manufacturer using such a test, and denying a warranty claim specifically for a viscosity deviation. My opinion is that you won't find it, because dealers/manufacturers won't go beyond a look at the dipstick and oil change interval resets resident in the vehicle's computer NVM.

Don't need to run a test. Don't need to look at the oil change resets. Show me your receipts proving you changed the oil with the specified oil and filter and as per the maintenance schedule. Your receipts have the oil viscosity. They have the dates of when you bought the oil. They don't prove you actually changed the oil, but neither do the oil resets. No receipts? Denied.

Paranoia? Maybe, maybe not. There are numerous stories on car/truck forums about being denied warranty for much less bogus reasons than this. I've personally never run into a problem before but I've also never had a failure that had anything to do with engine lubrication.

 

[flyer92]

Here are the same values for specific brands and 0W-20 viscosities which are ranked from thinnest to thickest within the same viscosity. Havoline is the thinnest 0W-20 and Redline is the thickest (using the KV numbers)

Thanks for posting the comparison charts, as they provide a little more clarity on the differences between many popular brands. However, these are only numbers, so it isn't clear just how much more protection 9.1 KV provides compared to 8.0 KV. Obviously, it is a 1.1 KV difference, but how does that practically affect the engine? Is 9.1 significantly better than 8.0? Marginal? Negligible? Just difficult to know this without more information or practical experience.

I am a big fan of Redline oil, and have been using it in my wife's BMW E30 for many years. I would like to use it in my JL too, but am just a little concerned because the label does not bear the API symbol, nor does it say that it meets MS-6395. I know that Redline is excellent oil, so perhaps I'm missing something?

 

[CarbonSteel]

The dilemma for those who are still under warranty is that the owners manual calls for 0W20 with the API starburst symbol. If you use some other viscosity like 5w20 or 0w30 or a non-API-certified oil (such as Amsoil) and you end up with an engine problem, the dealer can point to the incorrect oil being used and deny warranty coverage of the failed lubricated part. Using an oil that is arguably more protective and better for engine longevity but does not meet the manufacturer's written specification may lead to warranty denial. The bad part is they hold all the cards and your arguments for why the failure was not caused by your choice of oil will go unheard. It is a dilemma that is playing out in my head as I approach my first oil change.

How many oil related failures have you seen or even heard about where the oil was actually at fault? In my 40+ years of messing with cars, I have seen ZERO.

Lack of maintenance, improper use case, overheating, overloading...yes.

Bad oil...no and unless you are running junk oil, it is much ado about nothing.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Thanks for posting the comparison charts, as they provide a little more clarity on the differences between many popular brands. However, these are only numbers, so it isn't clear just how much better 9.1 KV is than 8.0 KV. Obviously, it is a 1.1 KV difference, but how does that practically affect engine performance? Is 9.1 significantly better than 8.0? Marginal? Negligible? Just difficult to know this without more information or practical experience.

I am a big fan of Redline oil, and have been using it in my wife's BMW E30 for many years. I would like to use it in my JL too, but am just a little concerned because the label does not bear the API symbol, nor does it say that it meets MS-6395. I know that Redline is excellent oil, so perhaps I'm missing something?

9.1 is essentially an xW-30. It does not affect engine performance, it provides more cushion for protection from viscosity break down, shearing, and temperature.

Let's use a different example. Direct Injected engines suffer from fuel dilution which thins the oil and can cause it to break down where protection suffers especially when running the oil for longer intervals (aka there is no way I would run the oil in a DI engine more than 5K miles).

The only way to combat fuel dilution is to change the oil, but you can reduce the impact by starting with a thicker viscosity which takes longer to drop below the safe zone.

There will be many who do not agree and that is their prerogative but xW-20 is at the bottom of the industry accepted range for viscosity before excessive wear begins and if the operating conditions cause the oil to go below that, you will see more wear versus using a thicker viscosity.

In the end, there is only ONE reason the OEMs started specifying thinner oils and it is not for engine longevity...

 

[flyer92]

9.1 is essentially an xW-30. It does not affect engine performance, it provides more cushion for protection from viscosity break down, shearing, and temperature.

Let's use a different example. Direct Injected engines suffer from fuel dilution which thins the oil and can cause it to break down where protection suffers especially when running the oil for longer intervals (aka there is no way I would run the oil in a DI engine more than 5K miles).

The only way to combat fuel dilution is to change the oil, but you can reduce the impact by starting with a thicker viscosity which takes longer to drop below the safe zone.

There will be many who do not agree and that is their prerogative but xW-20 is at the bottom of the industry accepted range for viscosity before excessive wear begins and if the operating conditions cause the oil to go below that, you will see more wear versus using a thicker viscosity.

In the end, there is only ONE reason the OEMs started specifying thinner oils and it is not for engine longevity...

OK thank you and I understand the benefits of a thicker oil, as well as the OEM's preference for thinner ones. I'm more concerned about how much better 9.1 is than 8.0, but if it is essentially an xW-30 as you explained, that's a pretty decent improvement, IMO.

As for my second question, I believe that Redline is neither API-certified, nor MS-6395 compliant. If true, I might just continue with Pennzoil in case I ever have to show receipts. Even though we all know that Redline is a superior lubricant, that won't matter to the dealership or corporate suits, who look for any reason not to repair or replace an engine under warranty. Sad that we have to think this way, but this is what we sign up for when purchasing a new vehicle these days. Oh, how I miss my old CJ!

 

[CarbonSteel]

OK thank you and I totally understand the benefits of a thicker oil, as well as the OEM's preference for thinner ones. I'm more concerned about how much better 9.1 is than 8.0, but if it is essentially an xW-30 as you explained, that's a pretty decent improvement, IMO.

As for my second question, I believe that Redline is neither API-certified, nor MS-6395 compliant. If true, I might just continue with Pennzoil in case I ever have to show receipts. Even though we all know that Redline is a superior lubricant, that won't matter to the dealership or corporate suits, who look for any reason not to repair or replace an engine under warranty. Sad that we have to think this way, but this is what we sign up for when purchasing a new vehicle these days. Oh, how I miss my old CJ!

I have never ran Redline so could not comment on how good/bad it is. While it is a risk while under warranty given that OEMs change their minds like the wind, the odds of you having an oil related failure is remote indeed. I have NEVER seen an oil related failure and certainly would not see one from running a thicker oil versus thinner--but totally get it.

As for MS-6395, I looked it up some time ago and it is nothing special--just as the Ford WSS specifications are nothing special. I bought the Ford WSS specification sheet (to go with the Bronco) some days ago and it essentially states the oil has to be API SP and ILSAC GF-6A which means that nearly every oil on the market meets spec except for some boutique oils. IF memory serves MS-6395 is more or less the same.

Here is a link to every UOA I performed on the Grinch - it may give some insight.

 

[flyer92]

I have never ran Redline so could not comment on how good/bad it is. While it is a risk while under warranty given that OEMs change their minds like the wind, the odds of you having an oil related failure is remote indeed. I have NEVER seen an oil related failure and certainly would not see one from running a thicker oil versus thinner--but totally get it.

As for MS-6395, I looked it up some time ago and it is nothing special--just as the Ford WSS specifications are nothing special. I bought the Ford WSS specification sheet (to go with the Bronco) some days ago and it essentially states the oil has to be API SP and ILSAC GF-6A which means that nearly every oil on the market meets spec except for some boutique oils. IF memory serves MS-6395 is more or less the same.

Here is a link to every UOA I performed on the Grinch - it may give some insight.

Got it, and many thanks for the additional insight. I realize that others may perceive this discussion as splitting hairs, but I just find it interesting and want to use the best possible oil, while complying with Stellantis's (lame) API and material standard requirements. Much appreciated and happy Jeepin'!

 

[CarbonSteel]

Got it, and many thanks for the additional insight. I realize that others may perceive this discussion as splitting hairs, but I just find it interesting and want to use the best possible oil, while complying with Stellantis's (lame) API and material standard requirements. Much appreciated and happy Broncoin'Jeepin'!

Anytime! Happy to help...one small correction above

 

[AFD]

As for MS-6395, I looked it up some time ago and it is nothing special--just as the Ford WSS specifications are nothing special. I bought the Ford WSS specification sheet (to go with the Bronco) some days ago and it essentially states the oil has to be API SP and ILSAC GF-6A which means that nearly every oil on the market meets spec except for some boutique oils. IF memory serves MS-6395 is more or less the same.

When speaking with a Mobil-1 rep prior to them getting the MS-6395 spec approved for their 0W-20 EP, they told me in no uncertain terms that the product already exceeded that spec and that they only needed to have their testing and certification finalized to be able to print that on the bottle.

Short of using 5 quarts of Crisco vegetable oil (or using old/deteriorated oil) I absolutely agree that instances of an oil-related failure are far and few between, but like OP, I absolutely wouldn't have used that Mobil-1 before the certification, solely because some dude at a dealership could potentially try to use that as a bs reason to deny a hypothetical warranty repair. With the cert, I use it now without any worry that I didn't follow the owner's manual to a "T", even though it was just as safe to use prior.

And while I know that "recommended" ≠ "required" and afaik, it's up to the dealer/mfg to prove that a particular oil caused a problem, it's still within reason to stick with a recommended spec oil during the warranty period and just one less potential hassle if warranty repair was ever needed for whatever legitimate reason.

 

[roaniecowpony]

I think those owners that are truly concerned about having any warranty claims denied should have the dealership do all of their maintenance. Then there will be no question about the oil selection or who left the drain plug loose. They should also not modify their vehicle.

 

[CarbonSteel]

I think those owners that are truly concerned about having any warranty claims denied should have the dealership do all of their maintenance. Then there will be no question about the oil selection or who left the drain plug loose. They should also not modify their vehicle.

Fully agree and while I understand some people's aversion to risk and concern about a warranty issue and being denied, the vast majority on here have already made enough modifications to have that happen anyway.

There is more of a chance of the Jeep being totaled in an accident than an engine failing due to an oil related failure...but I get it.

 

[CarbonSteel]

When speaking with a Mobil-1 rep prior to them getting the MS-6395 spec approved for their 0W-20 EP, they told me in no uncertain terms that the product already exceeded that spec and that they only needed to have their testing and certification finalized to be able to print that on the bottle.

Short of using 5 quarts of Crisco vegetable oil (or using old/deteriorated oil) I absolutely agree that instances of an oil-related failure are far and few between, but like OP, I absolutely wouldn't have used that Mobil-1 before the certification, solely because some dude at a dealership could potentially try to use that as a bs reason to deny a hypothetical warranty repair. With the cert, I use it now without any worry that I didn't follow the owner's manual to a "T", even though it was just as safe to use prior.

And while I know that "recommended" ≠ "required" and afaik, it's up to the dealer/mfg to prove that a particular oil caused a problem, it's still within reason to stick with a recommended spec oil during the warranty period and just one less potential hassle if warranty repair was ever needed for whatever legitimate reason.

Many, if not all, of the oils on the market far exceed the OEM specifications but choose not to chase the "approvals" due to cost or other issues. Any oil that meets Dexos 1 Generation 3 is a prime example as well as nearly all of the European certifications because Europe had long drain requirements before it was even a twinkle in a US engineer's eyes. I ran Mobil 1 ESP 0W-30 at the end before I sold the Jeep and I have yet to find another off the shelf oil that exceeds its performance given the European specifications that it meets.

Totally get the risk factor though...

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