Explaning ESS to a middle schooler

[longfiredragon]

Yes ESS Sucks, but you have went way,way, way overboard with this. By doing so you would have helped to contribute to our already educational failure in this country.

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[Fudster]

I completely respect people's right to come to the thread and voice displeasure over ESS.

There is indeed much to not like about it, from

* The green footprint impact that creating and then disposing of batteries takes, to
* The rules the EPA uses to rate it--which don't much deal with how viable the system is in practice once the vehicle leaves the showroom, to
* How Stellantis designed it with two dissimilar size batteries, to
* The wear and tear it can place on components, to
* The varied design among manufacturers that turn on and off the engine at awkward points in its cycle, to
* How little it saves for mostly highway drivers, who paradoxically enough are the ones mostly likely to not have ESS fail because ample times are spent charging the batteries at highway speeds rather than depleting them in city driving stop and go traffic, to
* How small the stock ESS battery is relative to the energy sucking aftermarket appliances many owners install, from winches to lights,

....hardly an exhaustive list.

My take though was just about, looking at ESS systems in general, what are the scientific principles at play that allow them, under the right or ideal conditions, to save liquid fuel.

Personally, I do not enjoy the ideal of having to trickle charge my JL (and I have to) at rest to get ESS to work. The hassle of plugging it in notwithstanding, there also exists the reality that the so called energy savings I am getting in gasoline mileage must be counterbalanced, even in small part, by the utility power I'm drawing to run the trickle charger.

Even the implementation of a solar charger, while free when it comes to current, requires an up front expenditure.

If there's any saving grace here it's that ESS systems will likely go down in history as the "pet rock" of a small window in time as we transition to hybrid and electric only power plants.

 

[driventoadventure]

Not to mention there is nothing keeping the oil at the top of the engine. ESS is dumb!

Unless I am missing your point, oil does not need to be circulated when the engine is not running...

 

[Mikester86]

Unless I am missing your point, oil does not need to be circulated when the engine is not running...

Oil being circulated is much better than engine stopped by ESS, oil starts to drain down then engine fires up again, rinse and repeat. Maybe it’s completely insignificant.

 

[Heimkehr]

Oil being circulated is much better than engine stopped by ESS, oil starts to drain down then engine fires up again, rinse and repeat.

That captures one of my two interlinked objections to ESS:
The volume of oil draining away from the head and cylinders being inexorably linked to the length of the ESS event (i.e., how long the engine is off), and the urgency with which one may need to accelerate from a stop being compromised by the crucial bit of time required to crank the engine...and by extension, the demands then placed on that thin film of oil remaining on the camshafts, etc. until the oil pump can send enough oil northward again.

The foregoing is indeed significant as it concerns the long-term health of the engine.

I couldn't install the ESS eliminator harness on my new Jeep fast enough.

 

[Fudster]

While many of the issues faced with warm cranking the engine in ESS systems, from pumping oil and coolant while the engine's off, to wear and tear, have been identify and often, particularly with the higher end brands, remediated/addressed, the technologies come with greater purchase and maintenance costs.

 

[mgroeger]

I would tell a middle schooler,

“When you get older be careful who you vote for or your car will continue to have useless design features to satisfy political regulations. In the meantime, be a pal and press that button for me that looks like the Avenger’s logo…”

^^^^^ THIS!!!!!! ^^^^^

 

[Jebiruph]

The alternator does not get harder to turn because of an increased load. The Kinetic Forces do not change. The wires may be hotter but that is it.

Alternators produce electricity using magnetic fields. The PCM senses the load on the alternator and when more electricity is needed, it increases the strength of the magnetic fields so more electricity is produced. The stronger magnetic fields create more resistance to the turning of the alternator.

 

[58Willys]

Oil being circulated is much better than engine stopped by ESS, oil starts to drain down then engine fires up again, rinse and repeat. Maybe it’s completely insignificant.

I’ve pulled motors apart that have sat for over 6 months. There’s plenty of oil in the top ends. IMO, it’s not a factor. The time an ESS motor doesn’t idle, extends oil life due to less dilution and wear.

 

[Chugiakguy]

I’ve pulled motors apart that have sat for over 6 months. There’s plenty of oil in the top ends. IMO, it’s not a factor. The time an ESS motor doesn’t idle, extends oil life due to less dilution and wear.

That might be (and I stress 'might be') all well and good for somebody who lives in New York City and spends 90% of their road time in heavy or rush-hour-type traffic, but what about those of us who live more rural, and for whom 80% or 90% of our driving is on the highway, or on roads with very few stops along the way? We are burdened with what is essentially not only a useless system, but a positively detrimental one.

This is the kind of thing that I just LOATHE about out-of-touch, divorced-from-reality bureaucrats and central planners: the simplistic "one size fits all" restrictions and mandates that in practice NEVER fit all, or nearly all.

 

[Deleted member 59498]

I turn it off, issue explained.

 

[Chugiakguy]

I turn it off, issue explained.

I went to the gas station to put a little more air in my tires today, and I was PISSED when I came to a stop there and found the engine shutting off --- dammit, I had forgotten to hit the stupid Avenger button again!

 

[driventoadventure]

This is the kind of thing that I just LOATHE about out-of-touch, divorced-from-reality bureaucrats and central planners: the simplistic "one size fits all" restrictions and mandates that in practice NEVER fit all, or nearly all.

I mean, do you not see the irony in your statement?

Mechanics and engineers (I ranked mechanics first intentionally by the way) and a literal decade plus of data say that this is net beneficial to the significant majority of users (as well as the world as a whole), and you say it is short sighted to implement something that is a button-press (with many inexpensive tools to permanently defeat) from disabling because it is slightly inconvenient for a small minority of users.

 

[Chugiakguy]

I mean, do you not see the irony in your statement?

Mechanics and engineers (I ranked mechanics first intentionally by the way) and a literal decade plus of data say that this is net beneficial to the significant majority of users (as well as the world as a whole), and you say it is short sighted to implement something that is a button-press (with many inexpensive tools to permanently defeat) from disabling because it is slightly inconvenient for a small minority of users.

Sorry, no, I see no irony in my statement at all --- which was pointedly directed at the general pattern of "one size fits all mandates", and NOT just at the stupid, stupid ESS system.

Please try your attempted rebuttal again.

 

[jaymz]

I’ve pulled motors apart that have sat for over 6 months. There’s plenty of oil in the top ends. IMO, it’s not a factor. The time an ESS motor doesn’t idle, extends oil life due to less dilution and wear.

As have I. But a couple of puddles of oil sitting in the cylinder heads do not provide lubrication to vital components. Oil in the passages do, and those drain back to the pan fairly soon after the engine is shut off. Especially at operating temps. Now whether or not that’s significant is an entirely different conversation.

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