Explaning ESS to a middle schooler

[billy-buck]

Man I’ve got a bone to pick with you then. Batteries suck nowadays. What’s the deal?

Just like anything, chipping away at quality in the name of cost reduction balanced with warranty. Sure you've heard the old tale of Henry Ford combing parts yards for components that outlasted the vehicle... yup.

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[billy-buck]

Plus... as the OP stated, the SS system is extremely hard on batteries, even full AGM batteries have a hard time with the duty cycle.
If you step back, this is a major problem for every "advance" in CO2 control. Storage is a PITA.

 

[mwilk012]

Just like anything, chipping away at quality in the name of cost reduction balanced with warranty. Sure you've heard the old tale of Henry Ford combing parts yards for components that outlasted the vehicle... yup.

I swear there’s just less lead in the damn things now to sell the super high end AGM batteries more.

We’re an interstate battery dealer and the prices have doubled in 5 years and the average lifetime of the batteries and down by 2 years.

And I’m talking about on the same old vehicle. We have some cars that have been in for 25+ years

 

[billy-buck]

I swear there’s just less lead in the damn things now to sell the super high end AGM batteries more.

We’re an interstate battery dealer and the prices have doubled in 5 years and the average lifetime of the batteries and down by 2 years.

Lead is massively controlled now... add that to the list of reasons - regulation. Consider that 99.99% by weight, of every battery is recycled, and the laws and regulations around operating/running, much less building, a facility to recycle....

 

[BXFXJeep]

I'll have to try that.. or just continue my regular pattern of constantly playing with the ESS on/off button so it only works when actually warranted (if it feels like it).

While some of its behavior is just a mild nuisance, there's a really dangerous blind intersection I need to turn through near work. It's 25MPH w/flashing yellow lights and oncoming traffic indicators, where large triaxles and semis barrel through at over 50MPH. Stopping to turn here or pulling out from there is scary af and losing even a split second from the engine being stopped isn't a comfortable scenario imo and of course, there's no way the ESS would ever know that.

If you do not depress the brake all the way, the engine would not shut off, there is a spot when you depress that's a trigger to indicate the engine can shut off, I used that most of the time since it's easier than remembering to press the ESS disable button.

 

[Flatties 4ever]

If you do not depress the brake all the way, the engine would not shut off, there is a spot when you depress that's a trigger to indicate the engine can shut off, I used that most of the time since it's easier than remembering to press the ESS disable button.

Yes, good advice!….
….until you actually stop to park and the engine turns off before you have a chance to take it out of drive, only to start again when you put it in park so you can turn it off again manually - brilliant gas saving software!

 

[Fudster]

Yes, good advice!….
….until you actually stop to park and the engine turns off before you have a chance to take it out of drive, only to start again when you put it in park so you can turn it off again manually - brilliant gas saving software!

It is stupid Chuck. But this one isn't on Stellantis. It's an EPA ESS requirement that when in Park, the engine is on.

I wished, once ESS was engaged, that putting the vehicle into Park kept it there, with the engine off, until, if at all, the vehicle was placed back into a moving gear before the engine recranked.

 

[AFD]

If you do not depress the brake all the way, the engine would not shut off, there is a spot when you depress that's a trigger to indicate the engine can shut off, I used that most of the time since it's easier than remembering to press the ESS disable button.

Thanks! I've been trying to find the sweet spot for that, but haven't quite figured it out yet.

Instead, I now find myself not coming to a complete stop at empty stop signs, which even if it is/isn't safe to do, it'll eventually get me a ticket. Gotta love modern technology that encourages and reinforces potentially unsafe driving behavior and traffic violations.

 

[58Willys]

That might be (and I stress 'might be') all well and good for somebody who lives in New York City and spends 90% of their road time in heavy or rush-hour-type traffic, but what about those of us who live more rural, and for whom 80% or 90% of our driving is on the highway, or on roads with very few stops along the way? We are burdened with what is essentially not only a useless system, but a positively detrimental one.

This is the kind of thing that I just LOATHE about out-of-touch, divorced-from-reality bureaucrats and central planners: the simplistic "one size fits all" restrictions and mandates that in practice NEVER fit all, or nearly all.

For folks like you, if you're not in city stop and go traffic, the ESS is seldom used - so no worries.

 

[SLORubi]

@Fudster
I think adding hypothetical numbers to the analogy would help. Numbers wouldn’t need to be exact but kept to scale. At 6th grade they will get the math and can connect it to the physics of energy consumption due to conversion.

 

[Fudster]

@Fudster
I think adding hypothetical numbers to the analogy would help. Numbers wouldn’t need to be exact but kept to scale. At 6th grade they will get the math and can connect it to the physics of energy consumption due to conversion.

I've been trying to find something around the house, that's safe to access, that demonstrates inertia. One example comes in a relatively heavy duty appliance motor that I can show how much power it draws initially to start, versus the relatively little it needs to continue spinning once at speed.

Another is simply noting the mpg's on the EVIC as the JL is starting versus maintain cruising speed.

 

[jeepoch]

@Fudster,

Elliot, thanks so much for the really interesting points that you're making with this thread. There are so much science concepts, physics equations, engineering analysis, emotional feelings and political stupidity all piled into one nice neat little pushbutton. Furthermore one that nobody (and I mean no one) ever wants to simply just press. God forbid.

The people that absolutely abhor ESS will spend an insane amount of money and effort just to prevent the need to even think about pressing that little button.

The people who don't want to push the button but really don't hate the concept will spend an insane amount of intellectual energy in trying to both understand and justify it.

The third group of people are the lemmings that just won't spend any effort whatsoever in even coming up with an opinion either way and could care less (period).

So thank you to everyone that has contributed (or will make the concerted effort to contribute in this conversation). You are clearly someone who has thought about this subject and has at least made enough mental investment to develop an opinion and contribute. Again thanks, this has been (so far) a great read with intriguing and insightful input.

But, looking profoundly past whether gasoline, (or more specifically it's chemical energy, regardless of the seven second rule), is conserved in greater amounts than the integrated sum of all the other factors in recovering and recharging the chemical energies of the batteries involved during the ESS event, and whether it's even beneficial (at all).

As with art, the beauty is in the eye (or mind) of the beholder. Only you can decide whether or not ESS benefits you individually or has any impact even towards the greater good at a much larger scale.

The learning opportunity here for the middle schooler is primarily one more of engagement. Does something of this nature, with the potential for so much Science, Technology, Engineering and Math (STEM) excite them? Does the psychology of the emotional rush in understanding the nature of why it's there to begin with interest them? Are they more into any ideological or political impact? Would they rather just go back to engaging with their phone?

We'll, at least you can at least characterize the approach you'll need to take to interact with them. One of the identified characteristic personality traits as outlined above should become a little more obvious.

I would start out by discerning would they even consider pushing that little pushbutton at all? If yes, you have a budding genius on your hands.

How many pushbuttons does a pilot need to deal with in the course of even the simplest of flights? We have but only one to consider when piloting our Jeeps.

Lastly, given the nature of bureaucratic overreach, I'm amazed that we even have a pushbutton at all. Skepticism to green ideology may soon not only just be futile, it very well may become totally irrelevant. Science be damned.

Jay

 

[Vinman]

This thread is proof people would much, much rather piss and moan than actually do anything about it.
When I bought my Jeep 2 years ago I didn’t like the ESS. Wanna guess what I did?

I opened the hood, disconnected the plunger, put some electrical grease in the now exposed connectors, taped them off and closed the hood.

No fancy programmer needed and the ESS has never been a thought since.

 

[Jebiruph]

I mean, do you not see the irony in your statement?

Mechanics and engineers (I ranked mechanics first intentionally by the way) and a literal decade plus of data say that this is net beneficial to the significant majority of users (as well as the world as a whole), and you say it is short sighted to implement something that is a button-press (with many inexpensive tools to permanently defeat) from disabling because it is slightly inconvenient for a small minority of users.

How would a mechanic know if it's a benefit to the significant majority of users?

 

[Heimkehr]

We’re an interstate battery dealer and the prices have doubled in 5 years and the average lifetime of the batteries and down by 2 years.

I've used and recommended Interstate batteries for years, and that has happened.

Were it not for Costco member pricing making them accessible at a less-insulting cost, I might've pivoted to a lower cost brand, simply because Interstate's juice is no longer worth the squeeze.

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