Does weight matter?

[InvertedLogic]

couple questions... is there any one thing that you think was more impactful than another? for example, was adding 20# per wheel significantly more noticeable than 100# of skid plates? Also, is there any item you would re-do or select differently now?

Thanks for the feedback!

Rotating mass (wheels/tires/brakes) has a bigger impact on performance/accel/mpg compared to sprung mass pound for pound. I've heard a comparison anywhere from 3:1 to 4:1. More info here: https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/sprung-vs-unsprung-weight

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[entropy]

It is also practically impossible to stay below GVWR on a Wrangler if you start modifying it. I don't remember what the JLU is, but my 2 door says 700 lbs.....

 

[Halstem1]

It is also practically impossible to stay below GVWR on a Wrangler if you start modifying it. I don't remember what the JLU is, but my 2 door says 700 lbs.....

Agreed. Also, all weight is not equal. Axles, control arms, wheels, and tires are not the same as adding roof rack, rooftop tent, fridge, water, etc... Again, probably a completely different convo that I originally intended.

 

[johnnyj]

Weight is very important. My JLUR is the 6th Jeep we've outfitted for the purpose of getting out camping/exploring/overlanding - whatever the parlance of the day is. It started with an old XJ to take to burningman one year, and on each one we've become smarter about weight.

The sticker on the door is a nice place to start as it will give a user something to think about, but it does not tell the whole story. How a manufacturer generates that number, especially in a modular vehicle, really matters. It also matters (while it may seem obvious it isn't to some) to consider towing capacity with cargo capacity. I've actually had conversations with folks when I worked at a dealer in which they stated something to the effect of "this thing can tow X amount of weight on a trailer, which is on wheels - the vehicle is on wheels too - so you can put up to that amount of weight in/on the rig." No, I'm sorry it's not a good idea to add 3500lbs of cargo to your rig =P

One thing that's problematic with wranglers - I'd need to call FCA and ask them about the JL, is the payload rating is often calculated on the absolute lightest configuration possible. This would mean a soft top, partially full (or even dry)fuel tank etc. Adding a hard top and other items available from the factory can subtract from this number before you even drive it off the lot. In other words, weight matters more to us than other vehicles which are relatively static in their configurations.

That doesn't mean you can't stack a boatload of bricks into a couple of wranglers and haul them home to build a retaining wall (ask me how I know) but they will perform like absolute garbage in the process compared to being unladen.

My favorite personal example of weight acting on vehicles is long-range mountain descents on multiday camping trips. Imagine the sort of trip where you get up as far as the forest roads can take you for camping, then come down in the morning to fuel and head back up again as you move across the state. My camping buddies fall into two groups on this topic: minimalists and bolt it on types. The minimalist rigs are all under the sticker weight by a significant amount and only have bolt on accessories which are absolutely necessary, purchased intentionally for light weight. The other guys are of the opinion the sticker is there for political/optics/safety reasons from the manufacturer, should be taken with a grain of salt, and bolt pretty much whatever they want to their trucks.

The truth is both make it up the mountain, and as expected the lighter vehicles being noticeably more nimble and require less skinny pedal. Coming down is a different story. When we get to the bottom, you can stand near any of the overloaded vehicles and know immediately they've been riding the brakes the entire time because of the awesome burning brake death smell. No joke - last year in Utah one of their rigs was smoking from the rear wheel area. They are stuck in that place where 4lo is way too low, and lower gears in 4hi still run away from them because of the weight. The nice and light builds can stick it in 4hi second and coast down, occasionally using the brakes to slow down before a sharp corner.

Personally, I enjoy staying well under the sticker and making a game of it to purchase components that are of the lightest variety for the task. I will say if you find yourself in the "bolt it on and send it" camp, there's nothing wrong with you - but a HD spring/shock and brake upgrade might be something you should consider. Most get the former and forget about the latter. Then, load your rig with all the cool stuff and get out and do a long, winding steep descent down forest roads and see how much you're needing to ride brakes, and remove weight from there.

 

[DOOKEY]

Does this Jeep make my butt look big?

Lots of good arguments in this thread. I'd suggest weight is the most important factor people don't think about.

 

[entropy]

All these people on youtube "overlanding". Family in JLU, rooftop tent, winch, metal bumper, camping equipment including fridge..... They are all WAY above the payload capacity.

 

[SecondTJ]

I know what you're saying but I'm actually not sure I agree with that. And I'm not worried about safety of vehicle weight. I'm more talking road manners and capability.

GVWR is based on the physical limiations of the vehicle components. If you replace those components with heavier more capable ones, you start skewing what that number is meant for. The stamped GVWR barely allows 4 adult dudes to ride in it. But if you install a set of dana 80/60's and add 1000#, should that reduce your load capacity or change your GVWR... I don't know. I'm not an engineer.

But get what you're saying. Just think that is a different topic... maybe.

Towing is a whole different conversation for sure. GVWR + your max tow capacity does not equal your CVWR (combined vehicle weight rating). Most people don't know that.

Most owners aren’t swaping axles, but just like GVWR/GCWR, the same can be said that front & rear GAWR doesn’t equal GVWR

Front GAWR
D44: 3100 lbs
D30: 2700 lbs

Rear GAWR
Wide D44: 3100 lbs
Std D44: 3000 lbs

GVWR
Rubicon: 5800 lbs
Sahara: 5500 lbs
Sport: 5400 lbs

 

[johnnyj]

All these people on youtube "overlanding". Family in JLU, rooftop tent, winch, metal bumper, camping equipment including fridge..... They are all WAY above the payload capacity.

Completely agreed. It's funny how it changed from camping to overlanding in the last 10 years - but I fall into the group of people who do this hobby. It's a shame when I talk to some of them because they don't want to admit they're gear addicts. (Which is fine, btw, but at least admit you don't NEED a 150lb roof rack and 150 lb RTT) I go on long journeys with them and if you looked at my wrangler you'd think I was in grave danger of being ill prepared.

I use the factory plastic bumpers purposefully by choice, don't carry a winch unless I'm going out by myself in the snow, don't have a roof rack or a RTT, and heaven forbid use the stock fuel tank capacity which is plenty. I still have a fridge and lightweight camping gear I swap out for backpacking, an old coleman stove which works great...I'm way under the capacity of my rig and do the exact same thing they do just as effectively.

My LJ, for a period of time I wanted to keep up with my pals who had cool gear, was built like theirs and was overweight. It took one trip of 500 miles off road in Utah to hate it's portly physique and I'll never, ever, go back to overweight again.

 

[Punjabi New Yorker]

I just want to know what everyone thinks about weight...

Does it matter? Heavy jeep vs a light jeep? Heavy upgrades compared to keeping things lighter.

I've always thought this mattered but someone at a local jeep club wanted to express his opinion that it didn't matter and I'm dumb for worrying about it. I could be totally wrong. I'm building this jeep up more than anything prior, so I don't know. I don't want to build a 3 ton tank that sucks to drive and its too heavy to function.

Maybe that's where re-gearing fixes everything???

I've been trying not to "over-build" since its my daily driver and has great on road manners. Not to mention, I get to actually go off-road about 4 times a year because of where I live. But if I'm worry too much about 10# here and 30# there, then I might do a couple things different. Things just start adding up when you have upgrading steering, control arms X 8, beadlocks X 5, MT tires X 5, skids everywhere, drive shafts X 2...

Any input is appreciated. sorry if a dumb question. Not the first time I worried about something that is a non-issue.

Thanks, Mike

Weight definitely matters I think. My JLUR is currently on soft top. It is a little quicker on the light versus when I operate Hard Top in Winter. Hard top for the 4 door is about 110Kg (240 pounds) and soft top is 38kg (84 pounds). I also notice it handles much better and is faster when my doors are off. Each front door is about 22Kg (50 pounds) and rear door is about 18Kg (40 pounds).

i have the 3.6 Pentastar with 8 speed automatic and no eTorque. The Jeep is fully factory stock as I am waiting for the three year warranty period to end.

 

[DrPerez007]

The quick and dirty answer is, "Yes, weight matters!" Every pound added to a vehicle must be accounted for. First, Jeep engineered this vehicle to perform at XXXX weight. When we add stuff, we change the engineering quotient, except we don’t do it with high speed computers and laboratories, we do it with wrenches and nuts and bolts and parts and then the true test, our seat of the pants drive. Who submits their Jeep to engineers after they have changed the suspension, swapped out bigger wheels and tires, added bumpers and winches, tacked on heavy running boards/rock rails and skid plates, and adorned it with brackets and lights? That’s right, no one.

For example, take just the typical Jeep JL wheel and tire package which from the factory weighs between 60 and 80 pounds depending on model. Now, substitute a standard 35” tire at between 60 and 80 pounds just for the rubber plus whatever wheel is added. Make that a 37” tire and they run between 65 and 90 pounds and can push 100 pounds. Plus the wheel. So now at every corner you’ve considerably increased the “un-sprung” weight of the vehicle which makes it more difficult for the suspension to do its job, even considering that many of us will swap that out, too. BTW, that’s more weight. And it’s not just the added weight, it’s the physics behind that weight that can change the dynamics dramatically. Look up “rotational inertia” and study that a bit to get a better feel for the effect of changing wheels and tires.

Now drop steel bumpers front and back, a 75 pound winch, and those rock rails and skid plates. The heavier the vehicle is, the more energy it needs to get moving and the longer it needs to stop. Sure, you can add bigger brakes. More weight. Heavier vehicles have greater inertia and greater rolling resistance, which both contribute to increased fuel consumption. Adding too much weight and the Jeep won’t get out of it’s own way. And as someone else mentioned there is the whole safety issue.

The engineers out there, and I am not, can chip in more intelligently, but will more than likely agree, weight matters. Fuel mileage will decrease, performance will degrade without sufficient, and oftentimes significant modifications, handling (including braking) may be compromised, and regearing at some point could be necessary. Been there, done that. Not that it’s bad, we all get our rigs where we want them to be, but to make a simple statement that weight doesn’t matter is naive because ultimately every pound has to be accounted for in some fashion. The good, the bad, and the ugly.

 

[aldo98229]

Yes, weight matters.

As I mentioned on another thread, I noticed the biggest impact on handling from doing something most of us do - swap the factory wheels and tires with aftermarket wheels and 35-inch MTs.

For instance, the factory wheels weigh ~20 lbs and 32-inch tires ~ 45 lbs a piece. The average aftermarket wheel weighs 25-30 lbs, and the average 35-inch MT weighs 70-80 lbs. That means we are adding 30 to 45 lbs., times 5, and we are adding 150 to 250 lbs just by swapping shoes. That’s the equivalent of carrying an extra adult every day, everywhere. Worse, we are adding most of that as unsprung weight, which directly impacts the Jeep’s handling and causes added stress and wear on suspension and steering components.

Then add the increased weight of a suspension lift, increased body armor, steel bumpers, winch, etc., etc., and we easily end up carrying an additional 600 to 1,000 pounds. That’s the equivalent of carrying around a full load of people.

 

[McCoys]

couple questions... is there any one thing that you think was more impactful than another? for example, was adding 20# per wheel significantly more noticeable than 100# of skid plates? Also, is there any item you would re-do or select differently now?

Thanks for the feedback!

honestly, moving from 32 inch to 34 inch tires was barely noticeable on the dana 35. Stability actually improved due to track width thats mostly due to -6 negative Wheel offset. I added 30lbs per wheel. Biggest impact for me(everyone is different) Is my front bumper setup at 260lbs including 190lb Bumper, 60 lb winch and 10lb lights. There is an obvious nose dive but only on sudden brakes. My rock rails are 70lbs each side equally distributed so more side body roll. my roofrack, rear bumper and spare adds another 250lbs in the rear not including my tools and spare parts. That probably decreased acceleration more than anything. Everyone says unsprung weight is more noticeable but honestly, i barely noticed it since i was already pushing so much above. One positive thing from all this weight is that I ride cushy as heck now. Its almost like driving on pillows unless its a huge pothole

 

[sourdough]

"say hello to my little friend". Light weight 3,100 lb Wrangler concept, Stitch...



Edit: For comparison my JLR weighs 5,200 lbs. (GVWR 5,350) fully loaded ready for a weekend of wheeling and camping. https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/showcase/biscuit.1163/
Realistically I believe I could lose 150lbs. or so with an aluminum belly pan and 5 lighter wheels but thats about it. I think I've done a pretty good job equiping my rig.

 

[aldo98229]

couple questions... is there any one thing that you think was more impactful than another? for example, was adding 20# per wheel significantly more noticeable than 100# of skid plates? Also, is there any item you would re-do or select differently now?

Thanks for the feedback!

All things being equal, adding unsprung weight always has a greater impact on driving characteristis than adding sprung weight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_mass

 

[YYCSahara]

You're suppose to stay below payload that's on the door jamb. Mine says 850lbs and that's with cargo and passengers. So with my whole family (5) and all our camping stuff, bigger wheels, steel bumper, I'm right close to the limit.

I know on other forums there were debates about what happens if you crash/hurt someone and it turns out you were over payload. People debated that it opens you up to legal action from the other party if you operate your vehicle over its design capacities.

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