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BSG vs ESS A simple explanation please.

The_Phew

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Doesn't BSG involve repeated start/stop of the engine? I wouldn't think that reduces engine wear. We will see how it goes on the JL. If the various new/enhanced components fail over time and are expensive to replace, that is a significant down side to people who will own the vehicles at that time. I don't see a good way to sugar coat it. You buy a used JL, and then your BSG starter/gen goes out, I would like to know what the owner would be shelling out for replacement.
Mild hybrid operation (BSG) isn't necessarily predicated on engine stop-start; if you turn off ESS, the BSG will still relieve the brakes under deceleration and relieve the engine under part-throttle acceleration.
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The_Phew

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If leaving out the start/stop functionality, then you are looking at lesser returns from the new system. For braking, I would rather change the consumables (pads) more often than rely on the additionally complex ancillary system with cost of fixing. For me that leaves mainly the BSG augmented acceleration you mention. We will see how that is eventually implemented on the JL (2019?) and the value it provides compared to system cost and component replacement costs.
Batteries have always been one of the most effective way to 'dump' excess energy; data centers handle electrical surges by dumping energy into batteries, not applying friction to a spinning disk to release heat. It's not just pad wear; heat takes its toll on rotors and fluid as well. Charging a battery instead means less thermal energy release, in favor of electrical energy. Heat is really what breaks things. Also, I believe the BSG motor/alternator is liquid-cooled, unlike brakes. A radiator in the front of the car dissipates heat much more effectively than a metal disc tucked inside a wheel.

Another big plus is that all brake components are considered wear items and thus not covered under warranties; the alternator and lithium battery are covered under base and extended warranties.
 

The_Phew

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If I were a longer term/used buyer of a vehicle with these systems, I would be interested in that aspect. Actually I would be going over those systems with a fine tooth comb and investigating all the potential costs if something looked marginal. On the other hand, if I were dropping cash every five years on a new vehicle, maybe I would not care so much. The issues with the system would be someone else's problem down the road.
Frankly, no new car meets your criteria. Every car now has 100% digital systems and more sensors than you can shake a stick at, plus elaborate powertrains that can't be repaired, just replaced. Your best bet is a 4Runner/Tacoma from 15-20 years ago; when something breaks, just go to the scrapyard and pull a replacement.
 

BillyHW

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BSG actually has driveability benefits beyond just the obvious fuel economy benefit:
-More torque off the line
Not useful on ice.

-Smoother torque delivery (in theory, it should act like a zero-lag turbocharger at low engine RPMs)
True, but is this really a big deal?

-More effective engine braking (since the generator adds its own 'braking', mitigating brake wear)
In theory it should improve engine life as well, since it's relieving stress from the engine during its most strenuous duty cycle (city driving).
Trading cheap brake wear for expensive battery wear is engineering madness.

If the ESS system is anything like my prior BMW F30, it's unobtrusive in conjunction with a manual transmission. If you don't want the engine to turn off at a stoplight, keep the clutch engaged. With a MT, you have total control over the system. Sometimes it makes sense to let the engine shut off if you know you'll be stationary for the next couple minutes.
I already shut the ignition off at railway crossings and car washes.
 

BillyHW

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If leaving out the start/stop functionality, then you are looking at lesser returns from the new system. For braking, I would rather change the consumables (pads) more often than rely on the additionally complex ancillary system with cost of fixing. For me that leaves mainly the BSG augmented acceleration you mention. We will see how that is eventually implemented on the JL (2019?) and the value it provides compared to system cost and component replacement costs.
Yeah, it's going to be a while before we can really make an educated judgment about this new system.
 

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BillyHW

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Batteries have always been one of the most effective way to 'dump' excess energy; data centers handle electrical surges by dumping energy into batteries, not applying friction to a spinning disk to release heat. It's not just pad wear; heat takes its toll on rotors and fluid as well. Charging a battery instead means less thermal energy release, in favor of electrical energy. Heat is really what breaks things. Also, I believe the BSG motor/alternator is liquid-cooled, unlike brakes. A radiator in the front of the car dissipates heat much more effectively than a metal disc tucked inside a wheel.

Another big plus is that all brake components are considered wear items and thus not covered under warranties; the alternator and lithium battery are covered under base and extended warranties.
Has anyone actually calculated what percentage of the braking will be from the regenerative system?
 

The_Phew

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Has anyone actually calculated what percentage of the braking will be from the regenerative system?
Highly dependent on the drivers' habits. My BMW was a 'very mild' hybrid (i.e. just a beefier 12v alternator that was smart enough to always engage during braking/decel), and it would show energy flow in iDrive, as well as 'extra miles of range' due to the system. If I engine braked/coasted in gear whenever possible (manual transmission), I'd see an extra 15 miles or so of range on each tank. 48V coupled with a motor could obviously do much better. But it you slam on the brakes every time you decel, the mild hybrid system won't do much for you; you've got to decelerate slowly to capture as much energy as possible.

And re: brake cost vs. battery cost, 330Wh of lithium cells (capacity of the JL BSG system) currently cost between $100-$200, and prices are plummeting. Have you priced out a full brake job at a dealer recently (pads+rotors+fluid)? Maybe you do brakes yourself, but swapping out the lithium battery should be an easy DIY also. Most automakers put 10/100k warranties on their lithium cells, I assume FCA does as well. Brakes typically carry a limited 1/12k warranty, and even within that time, you may have to pay for it.
 

alphalife9

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I wonder if the pentastar JL's MPG ratings will change once BSG gets added. Has anyone been able to compare first hand any vehicle with and without something like bsg?
 

BillyHW

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I wonder if the pentastar JL's MPG ratings will change once BSG gets added. Has anyone been able to compare first hand any vehicle with and without something like bsg?
Maybe you can try to look up the MPG difference of the BSG and non-BSG equipped Hemi Chargers/Challengers to get an estimate of the effect it has on MPG.
 

BillyHW

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Highly dependent on the drivers' habits. My BMW was a 'very mild' hybrid (i.e. just a beefier 12v alternator that was smart enough to always engage during braking/decel), and it would show energy flow in iDrive, as well as 'extra miles of range' due to the system. If I engine braked/coasted in gear whenever possible (manual transmission), I'd see an extra 15 miles or so of range on each tank. 48V coupled with a motor could obviously do much better. But it you slam on the brakes every time you decel, the mild hybrid system won't do much for you; you've got to decelerate slowly to capture as much energy as possible.

And re: brake cost vs. battery cost, 330Wh of lithium cells (capacity of the JL BSG system) currently cost between $100-$200, and prices are plummeting. Have you priced out a full brake job at a dealer recently (pads+rotors+fluid)? Maybe you do brakes yourself, but swapping out the lithium battery should be an easy DIY also. Most automakers put 10/100k warranties on their lithium cells, I assume FCA does as well. Brakes typically carry a limited 1/12k warranty, and even within that time, you may have to pay for it.
I didn't hear anything about a 10 year warranty from FCA on eTorque. My guess is it has the same powertrain warranty as all the other components. And if it costs less than $2000 parts and labour from the dealer to replace the battery I will be freakin' amazed.
 

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The_Phew

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I didn't hear anything about a 10 year warranty from FCA on eTorque. My guess is it has the same powertrain warranty as all the other components. And if it costs less than $2000 parts and labour from the dealer to replace the battery I will be freakin' amazed.
330 Wh is a TINY lithium battery; imagine four laptop batteries. I agree the stealerships will overcharge for replacement, but on paper it should be no more than double the replacement cost for a 12V lead-acid battery. The entire BSG system is a ~$1000 upsell to from the suppliers to FCA, although I doubt they pass on more than half that cost to consumers (judging by the fact that the 2.0T BSG is priced less than the 3.6 ESS).
 

StyleGuy

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All of this new technology with unknown replacement costs are making the decision to purchase the lifetime warranty easier. If you're someone that keeps a vehicle for longer than the factory warranty period it might be a good $$$ decision. BSG, ESS, turbo, sealed transmission, extra batteries, mild hybrid systems, sensors galore, and everything is integrated into the touchscreen control in the dash. None of that is going to be cheap to diagnose or repair. $2,500 now or ? later. The good thing is you have a year to decide if you like the jeep. If you like it and think you'll drive it for a long time I'd purchase the warranty. Further research is required to make sure all of this is covered. I'm a diyer and can fix about anything, but much of this is over my head. It's almost impossible to work on your on vehicle anymore.
 

AZCrawl

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All of this new technology with unknown replacement costs are making the decision to purchase the lifetime warranty easier. If you're someone that keeps a vehicle for longer than the factory warranty period it might be a good $$$ decision. BSG, ESS, turbo, sealed transmission, extra batteries, mild hybrid systems, sensors galore, and everything is integrated into the touchscreen control in the dash. None of that is going to be cheap to diagnose or repair. $2,500 now or ? later. The good thing is you have a year to decide if you like the jeep. If you like it and think you'll drive it for a long time I'd purchase the warranty. Further research is required to make sure all of this is covered. I'm a diyer and can fix about anything, but much of this is over my head. It's almost impossible to work on your on vehicle anymore.
No brainer!!!
 

The Great Grape Ape

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Maybe you do brakes yourself, but swapping out the lithium battery should be an easy DIY also.
What are you basing that assumption on? It’s not in a typical easy to access location.

330 Wh is a TINY lithium battery; imagine four laptop batteries. I agree the stealerships will overcharge for replacement, but on paper it should be no more than double the replacement cost for a 12V lead-acid battery.
On paper means very little, on paper an LED should cost less than $1, but you won’t find a genuine replacement part for that cheap. A lot depends not only on cost of components, but cost of testing, cetification, etc. Because the last thing you would want is a cheapo Chinese Lithium battery rupturing under you gas tank in order to pinch a penny.

I would be surprised to see a replacement battery for less than $500 cost to the dealership, and likely closer to $1,000+ for owners ordering from Mopar etc.

Bosch and Hitachi as two major mfrs directly sell a variety of 48V replacements in the 0.4KWH range for $600 - $1400 depending on application.
The eTorque battery is a Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt-Graphite battery, which is not as cheap as old laptop batteries, because NMC has higher voltage & capacity, and greater power density/kg, so the NMC options would cost more than the Lithium-Iron-Phosphate and Lithium-Titanate options in many other vehicles.

I plan on getting the 3.6 with the BSG this fall, but I’m fully aware of the possible reliability and maintenance concerns, althouh they don’t concern me much.

As for the effectiveness of the BSG for braking, I doubt it’ll come close to the mechanical brakes, and it’s effect on engine-braking is still questionable, IMO especially if it wasn’t noticeable enough for reviewers to mention it in their 2.0T reviews.
 

The Great Grape Ape

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All of this new technology with unknown replacement costs are making the decision to purchase the lifetime warranty easier.
Lifetime Warranty usually doesn’t apply to batteries. But likely the BSG itself, converter, and wiring is covered, not sure about the belts if they would be considered consumables?
However, it’s a good idea in general if you plan on keeping your Wrangler significantly longer than 5yrs.

We still don’t know if the BSG 48V battery gets the same 10/100K warranty of the larger Hybrid batteries like the Pacifica’s, and until it’s stated in writing I wouldn’t assume anything for the eTorque application. We’ll likely know once the 2.0Ts are more ubiquitous, as it’s not spelled out in the Warranty sections of the User Guide or Owner Manual.

Be sure to Read the fine print. :movember:
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