A more simple Jeep?

[Nomad]

I apologize if this has been covered, I searched and couldn't find anything.

I watch a lot of YouTube, TFL, stuff like that. So much high tech on vehicles and such ridiculous pricing. The idea that loaded pickup trucks and off-roaders like Jeep can be at or near $100k is mind boggling. There are still numerous places all over the USA where you can buy a decent little house for less than that.

I'm thinking about the facts that A) the Renegade, though a decent rugged vehicle, isn't really focused on off road use, plus it's getting overdue for a redesign, and B) that the Suzuki Jimny IS focused on off road use, and is very popular with good reviews overseas, but not available here in the USA. I'm also quite a fan of really compact vehicles for daily use and saving the higher capacity vehicle for when it's actually needed.

Does anybody but me think a replacement for the Renegade could be more like a mini-Wrangler/Jimny-killer-in-the-USA model than another unibody SUV? Especially since Jeep already has the Cherokee, GC, and now the Wagoneer.

So of course, here's what I would buy in a heartbeat:

Size of a Jimny, or perhaps in between a Jimny and a TJ. Styled more like a Wrangler and not like the Renegade.

Two door only, why go small on purpose and then make a 4 door?

Make rollover protection integrated with a perimeter roof structure, then have a manual or powered fabric top like the one-touch. You can't have a full convertible without rollover protection and rollover protection makes it not "fully" a convertible, so why not have it all be the same structure? Perhaps there's an engineering or cost reason, feel free to enlighten me. Possibly have the rear window retract down into the tailgate and only the rear quarter glass would be fixed? For the sake of cost, personally I would skip the folding windshield. I may be wrong but that seems to be one of the least used features anyway. I'd keep it flat-ish for the styling but maybe a bit more rake. If the roll cage is then part of the body, you can have frameless doors, and that's pretty much like having half-doors automatically. You can still set it up for easy door removal.

Should it be front solid axle or IFS? I could go either way. You can certainly get by with IFS (a la Bronco) and give a nod to ride quality. I would make Selec-Trac standard but again choices would be OK. I'm seeing this as a Wrangler-Lite, if it isn't serious enough then buy a Wrangler.

Would they be able to do a manual transmission? Would they bother? Perhaps they have one off the shelf that can handle a mere 200lbft to lessen the trouble.

The Jimny is way underpowered for America with only about 100hp. A normally aspirated 2.0 four-banger with 175hp and 200lbft would kick the Jimny's butt and not destroy Jeep's CAFE score.

Have a base sport model for $23k. There's nothing off-road worthy in this range except used.

The loaded version, but don't call it "Rubicon", would be the big seller. KO2's 31" standard. A factory available Extreme package that is basically a small lift and the Wrangler Rubicon wheels and 33" tires. This would be awesome for taking advantage of Wrangler take-offs.

The factory could also take advantage of the Wrangler brotherhood by using the same U-connect, Dash display, steering wheel and airbags, switches, etc.

Anyway I'm just thinking in public on a Saturday morning. I look forward to comments. Cheers all.

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[ekim]

Make a razor street legal

 

[aldo98229]

Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, any modern vehicle is going to be loaded with electronics required to meet today’s safety and emissions regulations, and is likely going to have IFS due to consumer demand for predictable handling and for safety concerns.

My brother owned a 2015 Renegade Trailhawk. It was a fun little vehicle, but it was in the shop every other week. It was quite capable on snow covered roads, but it didn’t have enough articulation or ground clearance to serve as a true off-roader.

The only way to get relative simplicity for off-road use anymore is to buy an older XJ, TJ, WJ or ZJ and build it up.

If Wrangler hadn’t been in continuos product, Jeep wouldn’t build a solid axle vehicle today. So we have to count our blessings and appreciate what we have.

 

[The Last Cowboy]

@Nomad

I think you’re onto something. The size and overall look of a Jimney/Samurai.

To make it weigh less and give more interior room, make it unibody with an integrated frame, like the XJ. To keep stiffness in that structure it would need a roof structure or a cleverly designed roll bar system. To keep prices down, just have removable top panels or a slide back cloth roof.

Power could come from a 3 cylinder turbo or the 2.0 gas, as you mentioned, with a manual transmission option. Solid axles or truck based IFS.

This would be more or less a street legal SxS utility. No options more than maybe AC and some utilitarian stuff. The Radio would simply be an unseen Bluetooth link to a phone.

It would have to start at about $19k and top out less then the price of a base Wrangler.

I believe this was Mahindra's idea when they introduced the Roxor and built a US factory for it. The lawsuit took the wind out of their sail.

 

[aldo98229]

When JL was under development, there was considerable pressure from Sergio Marchionne to move Wrangler to IFS and make extensive use of aluminum.

The aluminum part got watered down somewhat but remained. Fortunately, consumers were very vocal in their opposition and the idea of IFS quieted down.

Nevertheless, at one point there was discussion of a compromise by which Sport and Sahara would go IFS and Rubicon would be the only Wrangler with a solid axle. Thankfully, the entire IFS argument went away. No doubt the people at Jeep pushed hard against it.

But the story only serves to illustrate the kinds of internal discussions that will be going on after JL’s 2023 mid-cycle refresh, when Jeep gears to develop a complete replacement for 2027.

Marchionne is gone, but the new bosses in France will have to contend with growing consumer demand for greener alternatives.

 

[aldo98229]

If Jeep is smart, Ford Maverick provides a general blueprint for how to build a successful smaller, affordable, efficient, credible “truck.”

Renegade had too many Italian parts to be a true off-roader. In typical Fiat mindset, there was too much emphasis on on-road performance and fuel economy, not enough on being a “Jeep.”

To be more successful, a Renegade replacement will need to be seen to offer fewer off-road compromises, and bring more innovative thinking than the current vehicle.

However, as long as Renegade shares a platform with Fiat 500X, that is unlikely to happen.

 

[aldo98229]

What...bring back the JK...?

 

[Heimkehr]

So of course, here's what I would buy in a heartbeat:

Size of a Jimny, or perhaps in between a Jimny and a TJ. Styled more like a Wrangler and not like the Renegade.

Two door only, why go small on purpose and then make a 4 door?

The fact that Federal safety and emission regulations render the Jimny unobtainium for U.S. consumers arguably guarantees that there's no business case for attempting a domestic version of the same...because it couldn't be the same, by design. That's just the way it is. The government is the impediment, not the market. That said, if the sheer volume of well-optioned vehicles (in every class) on the roads is representative, the market for truly basic vehicles like the Jimny is perhaps too small to sustain itself.

Those who want more simplicity than what a current, no-option Wrangler Sport is capable of providing will have to go back in time, in a manner of speaking, and purchase a predecessor vehicle: YJ, TJ, etc. Writ large, this is not an M.O. limited to the off-roading community. There is an established and continually robust market for other segments of the enthusiast market.

 

[Nomad]

The fact that Federal safety and emission regulations render the Jimny unobtainium for U.S. consumers arguably guarantees that there's no business case for attempting a domestic version of the same...because it couldn't be the same, by design. That's just the way it is. The government is the impediment, not the market. That said, if the sheer volume of well-optioned vehicles (in every class) on the roads is representative, the market for truly basic vehicles like the Jimny is perhaps too small to sustain itself.

Those who want more simplicity than what a current, no-option Wrangler Sport is capable of providing will have to go back in time, in a manner of speaking, and purchase a predecessor vehicle: YJ, TJ, etc. Writ large, this is not an M.O. limited to the off-roading community. There is an established and continually robust market for other segments of the enthusiast market.

I understand your points but I actually think it could be the market that impedes. There are many small cars meeting crash and emissions regulations now. I’m only really suggesting a more Wranglerish, soft top replacement for the Renegade. Suzuki is hardly even remembered in the car segment in the USA, it’s harder for them to bring Jimny here, Jeep wouldn’t have that problem.

 

[Heimkehr]

I understand your points but I actually think it could be the market that impedes. There are many small cars meeting crash and emissions regulations now. I’m only really suggesting a more Wranglerish, soft top replacement for the Renegade. Suzuki is hardly even remembered in the car segment in the USA, it’s harder for them to bring Jimny here, Jeep wouldn’t have that problem.

I too would very interested in a vehicle such as a Jimny, or especially a refreshed Tracker. How many others would be in line with you and I at the dealer, though, putting deposits down? I want to be optimistic here, Ron, but I'd suggest that if this was something that could be done, it would have already been done. Who knows, though; perhaps Stellantis will surprise us.

There's an instructive parallel here:
In response to the ever-expanding dimensions and price of its evergreen CR-V, in 2016 Honda introduced the HR-V. Ostensibly serving as the brand's new entry-level CUV, the HR-V functionally cloned the size and price point of the original CR-V, before that particular vehicle was left unsupervised at the buffet cart. (We've owned three CR-Vs to date, two of which are in the driveway right now, so this is a subject quite familiar to me. )

Anyway, despite the broadband availability of the attractively-sized and -priced HR-V for almost 7 years now, the CR-V continues to outpace it in sales and observed presence on the roads by a factor of approx. 9:1. That's just an intrabrand comparison, too; add similar vehicles from Toyota, etc. to the mix and the HR-V's identity becomes even more diluted. The HR-V meets every modern regulation that it must, but once again we observe the Market expressing its actual preference in the easily observable metric of sales trends.

 

[Nomad]

I too would very interested in a vehicle such as a Jimny, or especially a refreshed Tracker. How many others would be in line with you and I at the dealer, though, putting deposits down? I want to be optimistic here, Ron, but I'd suggest that if this was something that could be done, it would have already been done. Who knows, though; perhaps Stellantis will surprise us.

There's an instructive parallel here:
In response to the ever-expanding dimensions and price of its evergreen CR-V, in 2016 Honda introduced the HR-V. Ostensibly serving as the brand's new entry-level CUV, the HR-V functionally cloned the size and price point of the original CR-V, before that particular vehicle was left unsupervised at the buffet cart. (We've owned three CR-Vs to date, two of which are in the driveway right now, so this is a subject quite familiar to me. )

Anyway, despite the broadband availability of the attractively-sized and -priced HR-V for almost 7 years now, the CR-V continues to outpace it in sales and observed presence on the roads by a factor of approx. 9:1. That's just an intrabrand comparison, too; add similar vehicles from Toyota, etc. to the mix and the HR-V's identity becomes even more diluted. The HR-V meets every modern regulation that it must, but once again we observe the Market expressing its actual preference in the easily observable metric of sales trends.

Yes examples of upsizing abound. Sticking with Honda, the Civic is now much bigger that the Accords of old.
Renegade has not exactly been a pillar of reliability. Neither has the Wrangler for that matter! When the redesign of both comes along, reliability needs to be a major goal. And off-road ruggedness is selling. How many Wranglers never see the end of the pavement? I think the enhancement of that capability in the Renegade will help sales so I’m hoping for it. But ultimately your guess is as good as mine.

 

[west tex]

If Jeep is smart, Ford Maverick provides a general blueprint for how to build a successful smaller, affordable, efficient, credible “truck.”

Something like this:

 

[AFD]

I've always wanted a small, boxy and relatively cheap 2-door SUV like the Suziki Samurai/Jimny (or Geo Tracker), but there's been literally nothing like that in the US market for a very long time. Always thought Jeep would be the ideal company to reintroduce such a thing, but I'm still kinda skeptical as to what they believe a 'Baby Wrangler' should be, if we ever see one.

 

[Mikeoso]

Just out of curiousity...what would a 2 door JL Sport cost if it kept the govt required safety and fuel standards stuff, and stripped out everything required by consumer demand for Mercedes-level comfort and accessories?

Back to AM/FM radio with knobs, crank windows, doors that lock with a key, unheated seats and steering wheels. No USBs, no inverters and power receptacles, no vanity and aux lights.

Locking diff standard, Command-Trac standard. Mill and tranny optional, but no bigger than a 6. Want more than 10" clearance, add it yourself.

Back to 0-60 in 9 seconds or so, and tops out about 80.

For what a loaded 392 JLUR XR costs, before mods, you could get three CJ5s fully restored.

TLDR....much of what's happened to jeeps is people wanting a razr, tank, street racer, limo, and family wagon, all in one wrapper.

 

[Nomad]

Just out of curiousity...what would a 2 door JL Sport cost if it kept the govt required safety and fuel standards stuff, and stripped out everything required by consumer demand for Mercedes-level comfort and accessories?

Back to AM/FM radio with knobs, crank windows, doors that lock with a key, unheated seats and steering wheels. No USBs, no inverters and power receptacles, no vanity and aux lights.

Locking diff standard, Command-Trac standard. Mill and tranny optional, but no bigger than a 6. Want more than 10" clearance, add it yourself.

Back to 0-60 in 9 seconds or so, and tops out about 80.

For what a loaded 392 JLUR XR costs, before mods, you could get three CJ5s fully restored.

TLDR....much of what's happened to jeeps is people wanting a razr, tank, street racer, limo, and family wagon, all in one wrapper.

I think you're talking about almost what I'm talking about. A more basic version. I'm just suggesting that Wrangler is already a great seller and for the sake of keeping those sales, not degrading the content of a wrangler below the current Sport trim. The Sport is pretty much what you're asking for anyway.

If you utilize the Renegade niche in the lineup for the simple model, the benefits would be many. You would redesign to enhance the visual similarities, with more Wranglerish features like the roof, ride height, and more usability off-road, all things that would enhance sales even for people who don't actually go off road much. The smaller platform would allow for those smaller power plants that would give better economy, and at a lower price point buyers would accept a slower 0-60 time. Just not "Jimny slow".

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