BSG vs ESS A simple explanation please.

The_Phew

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Basically if you hang onto vehicles for a long time (which it seems you might), these BSG/ESS components are another aspect which could end up costing you considerable cash, if they have problems down the road. I'll be interested to start examining prices for JL replacement parts, such as the enhanced starters for these systems and other related components. Gone are the days of a $35 rebuilt starter or alternator. Damn I recently replaced the fuel pump on my CJ-7 for $15!
ESS is only a detriment in terms of wear and tear, but BSG may well lower overall maintenance/repair costs, since it reduces brake, engine, and transmission wear.





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Indio

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ESS is only a detriment in terms of wear and tear, but BSG may well lower overall maintenance/repair costs, since it reduces brake, engine, and transmission wear.
Doesn't BSG involve repeated start/stop of the engine? I wouldn't think that reduces engine wear. We will see how it goes on the JL. If the various new/enhanced components fail over time and are expensive to replace, that is a significant down side to people who will own the vehicles at that time. I don't see a good way to sugar coat it. You buy a used JL, and then your BSG starter/gen goes out, I would like to know what the owner would be shelling out for replacement.
 

The_Phew

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Doesn't BSG involve repeated start/stop of the engine? I wouldn't think that reduces engine wear. We will see how it goes on the JL. If the various new/enhanced components fail over time and are expensive to replace, that is a significant down side to people who will own the vehicles at that time. I don't see a good way to sugar coat it. You buy a used JL, and then your BSG starter/gen goes out, I would like to know what the owner would be shelling out for replacement.
Mild hybrid operation (BSG) isn't necessarily predicated on engine stop-start; if you turn off ESS, the BSG will still relieve the brakes under deceleration and relieve the engine under part-throttle acceleration.
 

Indio

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Mild hybrid operation (BSG) isn't necessarily predicated on engine stop-start; if you turn off ESS, the BSG will still relieve the brakes under deceleration and relieve the engine under part-throttle acceleration.
If leaving out the start/stop functionality, then you are looking at lesser returns from the new system. For braking, I would rather change the consumables (pads) more often than rely on the additionally complex ancillary system with cost of fixing. For me that leaves mainly the BSG augmented acceleration you mention. We will see how that is eventually implemented on the JL (2019?) and the value it provides compared to system cost and component replacement costs.
 

The_Phew

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If leaving out the start/stop functionality, then you are looking at lesser returns from the new system. For braking, I would rather change the consumables (pads) more often than rely on the additionally complex ancillary system with cost of fixing. For me that leaves mainly the BSG augmented acceleration you mention. We will see how that is eventually implemented on the JL (2019?) and the value it provides compared to system cost and component replacement costs.
Batteries have always been one of the most effective way to 'dump' excess energy; data centers handle electrical surges by dumping energy into batteries, not applying friction to a spinning disk to release heat. It's not just pad wear; heat takes its toll on rotors and fluid as well. Charging a battery instead means less thermal energy release, in favor of electrical energy. Heat is really what breaks things. Also, I believe the BSG motor/alternator is liquid-cooled, unlike brakes. A radiator in the front of the car dissipates heat much more effectively than a metal disc tucked inside a wheel.

Another big plus is that all brake components are considered wear items and thus not covered under warranties; the alternator and lithium battery are covered under base and extended warranties.
 

Indio

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Batteries have always been one of the most effective way to 'dump' excess energy; data centers handle electrical surges by dumping energy into batteries, not applying friction to a spinning disk to release heat. It's not just pad wear; heat takes its toll on rotors and fluid as well. Charging a battery instead means less thermal energy release, in favor of electrical energy. Heat is really what breaks things. Also, I believe the BSG motor/alternator is liquid-cooled, unlike brakes. A radiator in the front of the car dissipates heat much more effectively than a metal disc tucked inside a wheel.

Another big plus is that all brake components are considered wear items and thus not covered under warranties; the alternator and lithium battery are covered under base and extended warranties.
Persons who buy new and unload during warranty can have very different circumstance and needs compared to those who hang onto vehicles longer or buy used. My comments were directed at the out of warranty situation.

Data center needs/values can be different than out of warranty vehicle owner needs/values. But I think most would agree storing energy in a battery for future use, would be more efficient than letting that energy loose on the environment as dissipated heat. Clearly ESS/BSG has some efficiency value (particular for FCA corporate CAFE). What is the value to the owner down the road, when instead of replacing brake pads in the driveway, the owner has a check engine light because tdc or some other sensor has an issue, or a more expensive starter/generator is needed, or battery has an issue, or some other component in the system has a problem.

If I were a longer term/used buyer of a vehicle with these systems, I would be interested in that aspect. Actually I would be going over those systems with a fine tooth comb and investigating all the potential costs if something looked marginal. On the other hand, if I were dropping cash every five years on a new vehicle, maybe I would not care so much. The issues with the system would be someone else's problem down the road.
 

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If I were a longer term/used buyer of a vehicle with these systems, I would be interested in that aspect. Actually I would be going over those systems with a fine tooth comb and investigating all the potential costs if something looked marginal. On the other hand, if I were dropping cash every five years on a new vehicle, maybe I would not care so much. The issues with the system would be someone else's problem down the road.
Frankly, no new car meets your criteria. Every car now has 100% digital systems and more sensors than you can shake a stick at, plus elaborate powertrains that can't be repaired, just replaced. Your best bet is a 4Runner/Tacoma from 15-20 years ago; when something breaks, just go to the scrapyard and pull a replacement.
 

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BSG actually has driveability benefits beyond just the obvious fuel economy benefit:
-More torque off the line
Not useful on ice.

-Smoother torque delivery (in theory, it should act like a zero-lag turbocharger at low engine RPMs)
True, but is this really a big deal?

-More effective engine braking (since the generator adds its own 'braking', mitigating brake wear)
In theory it should improve engine life as well, since it's relieving stress from the engine during its most strenuous duty cycle (city driving).
Trading cheap brake wear for expensive battery wear is engineering madness.

If the ESS system is anything like my prior BMW F30, it's unobtrusive in conjunction with a manual transmission. If you don't want the engine to turn off at a stoplight, keep the clutch engaged. With a MT, you have total control over the system. Sometimes it makes sense to let the engine shut off if you know you'll be stationary for the next couple minutes.
I already shut the ignition off at railway crossings and car washes.
 

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If leaving out the start/stop functionality, then you are looking at lesser returns from the new system. For braking, I would rather change the consumables (pads) more often than rely on the additionally complex ancillary system with cost of fixing. For me that leaves mainly the BSG augmented acceleration you mention. We will see how that is eventually implemented on the JL (2019?) and the value it provides compared to system cost and component replacement costs.
Yeah, it's going to be a while before we can really make an educated judgment about this new system.
 

BillyHW

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Batteries have always been one of the most effective way to 'dump' excess energy; data centers handle electrical surges by dumping energy into batteries, not applying friction to a spinning disk to release heat. It's not just pad wear; heat takes its toll on rotors and fluid as well. Charging a battery instead means less thermal energy release, in favor of electrical energy. Heat is really what breaks things. Also, I believe the BSG motor/alternator is liquid-cooled, unlike brakes. A radiator in the front of the car dissipates heat much more effectively than a metal disc tucked inside a wheel.

Another big plus is that all brake components are considered wear items and thus not covered under warranties; the alternator and lithium battery are covered under base and extended warranties.
Has anyone actually calculated what percentage of the braking will be from the regenerative system?
 

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Has anyone actually calculated what percentage of the braking will be from the regenerative system?
Highly dependent on the drivers' habits. My BMW was a 'very mild' hybrid (i.e. just a beefier 12v alternator that was smart enough to always engage during braking/decel), and it would show energy flow in iDrive, as well as 'extra miles of range' due to the system. If I engine braked/coasted in gear whenever possible (manual transmission), I'd see an extra 15 miles or so of range on each tank. 48V coupled with a motor could obviously do much better. But it you slam on the brakes every time you decel, the mild hybrid system won't do much for you; you've got to decelerate slowly to capture as much energy as possible.

And re: brake cost vs. battery cost, 330Wh of lithium cells (capacity of the JL BSG system) currently cost between $100-$200, and prices are plummeting. Have you priced out a full brake job at a dealer recently (pads+rotors+fluid)? Maybe you do brakes yourself, but swapping out the lithium battery should be an easy DIY also. Most automakers put 10/100k warranties on their lithium cells, I assume FCA does as well. Brakes typically carry a limited 1/12k warranty, and even within that time, you may have to pay for it.
 

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I wonder if the pentastar JL's MPG ratings will change once BSG gets added. Has anyone been able to compare first hand any vehicle with and without something like bsg?
 

BillyHW

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I wonder if the pentastar JL's MPG ratings will change once BSG gets added. Has anyone been able to compare first hand any vehicle with and without something like bsg?
Maybe you can try to look up the MPG difference of the BSG and non-BSG equipped Hemi Chargers/Challengers to get an estimate of the effect it has on MPG.
 

BillyHW

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Highly dependent on the drivers' habits. My BMW was a 'very mild' hybrid (i.e. just a beefier 12v alternator that was smart enough to always engage during braking/decel), and it would show energy flow in iDrive, as well as 'extra miles of range' due to the system. If I engine braked/coasted in gear whenever possible (manual transmission), I'd see an extra 15 miles or so of range on each tank. 48V coupled with a motor could obviously do much better. But it you slam on the brakes every time you decel, the mild hybrid system won't do much for you; you've got to decelerate slowly to capture as much energy as possible.

And re: brake cost vs. battery cost, 330Wh of lithium cells (capacity of the JL BSG system) currently cost between $100-$200, and prices are plummeting. Have you priced out a full brake job at a dealer recently (pads+rotors+fluid)? Maybe you do brakes yourself, but swapping out the lithium battery should be an easy DIY also. Most automakers put 10/100k warranties on their lithium cells, I assume FCA does as well. Brakes typically carry a limited 1/12k warranty, and even within that time, you may have to pay for it.
I didn't hear anything about a 10 year warranty from FCA on eTorque. My guess is it has the same powertrain warranty as all the other components. And if it costs less than $2000 parts and labour from the dealer to replace the battery I will be freakin' amazed.
 

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I didn't hear anything about a 10 year warranty from FCA on eTorque. My guess is it has the same powertrain warranty as all the other components. And if it costs less than $2000 parts and labour from the dealer to replace the battery I will be freakin' amazed.
330 Wh is a TINY lithium battery; imagine four laptop batteries. I agree the stealerships will overcharge for replacement, but on paper it should be no more than double the replacement cost for a 12V lead-acid battery. The entire BSG system is a ~$1000 upsell to from the suppliers to FCA, although I doubt they pass on more than half that cost to consumers (judging by the fact that the 2.0T BSG is priced less than the 3.6 ESS).
 

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