Botched winch install

[YBABRAT]

425A is a lot of current under load. Alternator's best sustained current is below its rating. Let's say usable output is 200A, if you have a tow package and HD wiring. Battery can pump out another 200A for short duration, until alternator overload by needing 425A.

I assume a peak current is stated for 425A, which can be at start operation for less than a second.

To use let's say 300A of your rated 425A the heat generated by the winch would cause thermal runaway with current needs. A very small nuclear melt down. Very inefficient in my book for size of winch and thermal dynamics of energy consumption.

If I am so wrong.... no oem power cable to the winch can withstand constant 400A and above in full winch operation. It's too small and will burn up.

Just because a charge cable from alternator is a smaller gauge for its charge current compared to a winch cable, is because the length is much smaller.

Now what is the constant operational safe current for oem winch cable? If 0/1, 150A which falls into my reply of a 150A circuit breaker. It's simple and no need to have a disconnect unless you worry someone will suck power with jumpers when you park and away from car.

There are many ways to skin a cat, I do things my way and you can as you see fit.

One thing when I do add info to a thread, I only expect it will give another angle to look at.

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[Zandcwhite]

425A is a lot of current under load. Alternator's best sustained current is below its rating. Let's say usable output is 200A, if you have a tow package and HD wiring. Battery can pump out another 200A for short duration, until alternator overload by needing 425A.

I assume a peak current is stated for 425A, which can be at start operation for less than a second.

To use let's say 300A of your rated 425A the heat generated by the winch would cause thermal runaway with current needs. A very small nuclear melt down. Very inefficient in my book for size of winch and thermal dynamics of energy consumption.

If I am so wrong.... no oem power cable to the winch can withstand constant 400A and above in full winch operation. It's too small and will burn up.

Just because a charge cable from alternator is a smaller gauge for its charge current compared to a winch cable, is because the length is much smaller.

Now what is the constant operational safe current for oem winch cable? If 0/1, 150A which falls into my reply of a 150A circuit breaker. It's simple and no need to have a disconnect unless you worry someone will suck power with jumpers when you park and away from car.

There are many ways to skin a cat, I do things my way and you can as you see fit.

One thing when I do add info to a thread, I only expect it will give another angle to look at.

Typically a pull that hard wouldn't be sustained very long, but it's not a start up spike like you'd see from a fan motor or the like. It's closer to a locked rotor current scenario. Obviously the alternator won't keep up with that demand but you have to remember the battery itself can provide 600+ CCA. There's a reason no winch manufacturers recommend breakers or fuses. If you're in a situation you need that hard of a pull, you want the full amps the battery can provide.

 

[YBABRAT]

Like I sated 0/1 AWG wire will not pass above 175A safely at the length given for winch install. 150A is within operational limits of a winch.

Battery alone won't do it... reason why winchers run engine around 2k RPM. The way you state it we should not bother running engine at all.

Fuse or in my case a circuit breaker will not effect current. Maybe I should have stated why to use a circuit breaker... it has nothing to do with protecting your winch. It is a safe guard incase of high impact collision. The wires burnt up as shown in pictures could have been saved if a fuse or circuit breaker was used. The wrong fuse or circuit breaker will allow higher than normal current to flow and possibly cause damage.

If the battery hits 12V during winching, you are taxing the alternator to compensate for lack of charge. When that happens, the alternator could be damaged or end up with a shortened life. Thus the reason why a 240+ Amp alternator is best for winching.

Just saying your logic don't add up.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Like I sated 0/1 AWG wire will not pass above 175A safely at the length given for winch install. 150A is within operational limits of a winch.

Battery alone won't do it... reason why winchers run engine around 2k RPM. The way you state it we should not bother running engine at all.

Fuse or in my case a circuit breaker will not effect current. Maybe I should have stated why to use a circuit breaker... it has nothing to do with protecting your winch. It is a safe guard incase of high impact collision. The wires burnt up as shown in pictures could have been saved if a fuse or circuit breaker was used. The wrong fuse or circuit breaker will allow higher than normal current to flow and possibly cause damage.

If the battery hits 12V during winching, you are taxing the alternator to compensate for lack of charge. When that happens, the alternator could be damaged or end up with a shortened life. Thus the reason why a 240+ Amp alternator is best for winching.

Just saying your logic don't add up.

The battery will absolutely provide the current necessary for a short time. Wires don't melt instantly from overcurrent either. Your circuit breaker will limit your winch to less than it's rated potential period. A disconnect switch would provide the sane impact protection you're after and not limit the output of your winch. I didn't make up the numbers, they are from the winch manufacturer unlike you're made up 1500w. Winches don't run the engine at 2k rpms as the 2 items aren't tied together. For long pulls it's good practice to keep the rpms up for max alternator output, but again long pulls are never at full load unless you're literally trying to crane your vehicle up a cliff which won't end well. If I need the full 13.5klbs of force to get unstuck, I'll pass on a breaker limiting that for no reason.

 

[YBABRAT]

Ok you can do your battery disconnect switch, but I doubt you'll be able to turn it off in time when things smoke and you are at a safe distance winching. A circuit breaker will do that for you before you see sparks or smoke.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Ok you can do your battery disconnect switch, but I doubt you'll be able to turn it off in time when things smoke and you are at a safe distance winching. A circuit breaker will do that for you before you see sparks or smoke.

I don't even run a switch, not sure where your impact/ short came from winching, but you do you. Again, not 1 manufacturer recommends a breaker or fuse and most don't recommend a switch. It's just not necessary.

 

[SoK66]

Dead short to ground. Miracle the battery didn’t explode or cause a fire. I’ve never understood why winch power isn’t fused. This proved my point.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Dead short to ground. Miracle the battery didn’t explode or cause a fire. I’ve never understood why winch power isn’t fused. This proved my point.

Batteries are current limiting by nature. Unless you run a lithium battery shorting it won't cause it to explode or catch fire. It's the same reason you can use a couple batteries in series and some welding rods to weld on the trail. The only thing limiting that current is the battery itself. Incorrectly wiring the winch causing a dead short is the problem, not fusing.

 

[SoK66]

Batteries are current limiting by nature. Unless you run a lithium battery shorting it won't cause it to explode or catch fire. It's the same reason you can use a couple batteries in series and some welding rods to weld on the trail. The only thing limiting that current is the battery itself. Incorrectly wiring the winch causing a dead short is the problem, not fusing.

Correct.

 

[mchastings]

Never ever do any electrical work be it on a vehicle (DC) or your home (AC) if you don’t know what you are doing. As an electrician myself people sometimes think it’s easy and that’s when the so called $&@! Hits the fan. And I also don’t see a fuse that would have blown and protected the wire and winch motor. Like has been said before “If you think it cost a lot to hire a professional wait and see what an amateur costs you”…

I blame YouTube!, my brother cut a major bundle of wires in his ford transit van watching a DIY video, lost power to everything aft. Took me 3 hours to ID 36 wires and to splice them together again.

 

[THAW]

Ok you can do your battery disconnect switch, but I doubt you'll be able to turn it off in time when things smoke and you are at a safe distance winching. A circuit breaker will do that for you before you see sparks or smoke.

As of a week ago you were still waiting for your Warn EVO to arrive, correct? Have you ever actually run an 8/10/12k lb winch with a 120/150 A circuit breaker, or are you just theorizing?

Even a 2500 lb Warn ATV winch peaks at over 150 amp draw.

 

[YBABRAT]

As of a week ago you were still waiting for your Warn EVO to arrive, correct? Have you ever actually run an 8/10/12k lb winch with a 120/150 A circuit breaker, or are you just theorizing?

Even a 2500 lb Warn ATV winch peaks at over 150 amp draw.

I have not ordered it as of yet... prolly next month.

I am getting the evo vr10. It has the lowest drum wrap loss and current consumption ratio of the three EVO VR winches.

I like to run all my electronics no more than 50% duty cycle or at 50% power. At 75% too much power is used for what you get in return. So a 10000lbs winch will do for pulling my 5000lbs jeep. I don't plan on rescuing other vehicals that are any heavier than my Jeep. If I were to put rescues as a priority I would get a 1 ton or bigger truck, just because the winch option is properly setup to do heavy duty winching.

Look at the jeep factory winch... it is small and has 80 feet of cable. I think they understand the electrical system barely meets the winch needs. Installing a monster winch 2x the capabilities of oem is begging for gremlins.

Back when I was looking at winch options In one of the reviews / testing sites stated something about or at 150A. If it pulles enough to make a fully charged battery drop below 13.3V while at 2000RPM. I'll go with a LifePo4 battery rated at least 1000CCA, and make sure the alternator does not take a hit.

We only can get 200A at best from our HD electrical charging systems... being that my alternator is a 250A one. 50A is lost to its operation and parasitic drain from heat. Having the limit of 175A for 0/1 AWG cable it falls around the limits of using alternator before voltage drain on battery. One could do dual 800CCA batteries but I am not into major changes for fitment.

The primary concern is 400A... no oem winch cable can sustain that much current, unless it's length just makes it to battery from the control box.

The person I tried to explain my reasoning cannot even see he is expecting too much and will not get maximum out of his winch. Yes he may draw 400+ amps, but to pull the numbers is impossible. The amount of wraps will dictate how fast he will burn up something in the efforts.

After hearing myself one too many times... I think I was too conservative on power. Going with 80% of a rated breaker may trip too soon.

I'll be safe with a 250A circuit breaker at the battery post feed to the winch power cable. Being that 80% will match with the 200A that the winch may need. I doubt I will allow much more than that when I use my winch.

If it trips, I can check the heat of the winch and cable, as to let it cool down before completing my winching.

 

[Zandcwhite]

I have not ordered it as of yet... prolly next month.

I am getting the evo vr10. It has the lowest drum wrap loss and current consumption ratio of the three EVO VR winches.

I like to run all my electronics no more than 50% duty cycle or at 50% power. At 75% too much power is used for what you get in return. So a 10000lbs winch will do for pulling my 5000lbs jeep. I don't plan on rescuing other vehicals that are any heavier than my Jeep. If I were to put rescues as a priority I would get a 1 ton or bigger truck, just because the winch option is properly setup to do heavy duty winching.

Look at the jeep factory winch... it is small and has 80 feet of cable. I think they understand the electrical system barely meets the winch needs. Installing a monster winch 2x the capabilities of oem is begging for gremlins.

Back when I was looking at winch options In one of the reviews / testing sites stated something about or at 150A. If it pulles enough to make a fully charged battery drop below 13.3V while at 2000RPM. I'll go with a LifePo4 battery rated at least 1000CCA, and make sure the alternator does not take a hit.

We only can get 200A at best from our HD electrical charging systems... being that my alternator is a 250A one. 50A is lost to its operation and parasitic drain from heat. Having the limit of 175A for 0/1 AWG cable it falls around the limits of using alternator before voltage drain on battery. One could do dual 800CCA batteries but I am not into major changes for fitment.

The primary concern is 400A... no oem winch cable can sustain that much current, unless it's length just makes it to battery from the control box.

The person I tried to explain my reasoning cannot even see he is expecting too much and will not get maximum out of his winch. Yes he may draw 400+ amps, but to pull the numbers is impossible. The amount of wraps will dictate how fast he will burn up something in the efforts.

After hearing myself one too many times... I think I was too conservative on power. Going with 80% of a rated breaker may trip too soon.

I'll be safe with a 250A circuit breaker at the battery post feed to the winch power cable. Being that 80% will match with the 200A that the winch may need. I doubt I will allow much more than that when I use my winch.

If it trips, I can check the heat of the winch and cable, as to let it cool down before completing my winching.

According to warn, the vr10 max draw is...358A. Keep trying to convince yourself that yours somehow won't draw anywhere near it's rating and that the alternator is feeding 100% of the amp draw. Neither of those is remotely true. Not sure on the current power wagons, but the 2nd gen had a winch with a max draw of 507A...and a 240A alternator. No they didn't come fused, no they didn't have disconnect switches, no they didn't have 750kcmil cables, and no they didn't burn up. Wire ampacities are rated for continous load. Pulling 500A for a short time through a 3/0 is possible and will not create enough heat to melt the insulation. Pulling 500A for a few seconds from your battery, even if you have to winch with the vehicle off (river cruising too deep, intake under water, winches out no problem), won't explode the battery or even discharge it enough to keep it from then starting the vehicle. There's the really world, where no one in the industry recommends fusing, and then there's knowing just enough of the theory to think you're doing the right thing and smarter than the actual engineers, designers, manufacturers, and those with decades of winching experience.

 

[Ph97048]

Batteries are current limiting by nature. Unless you run a lithium battery shorting it won't cause it to explode or catch fire. It's the same reason you can use a couple batteries in series and some welding rods to weld on the trail. The only thing limiting that current is the battery itself. Incorrectly wiring the winch causing a dead short is the problem, not fusing.

forget all these winch setup arguments. Teach me how to “trail weld”. Seriously.

 

[YBABRAT]

What fuse? Circuit breakers are not fuses. Infact you can use a circuit breaker as a disconnect if you choose so.

They may not recommend it but a circuit breaker is used more often in protection than you want to believe. I rather protect my investment than to abuse my investment.

I explained my reasons to do my install. But everything you point to does not compute for real world usage In my book. Max out your winch, it's not mine.

I am done... we are at two differing stand points.

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