Metalcloak lock-n-load vs Game changer

[Roky]

Any frame mounted rock sliders are gonna need modification with long arms on the JL.

I have been really happy with my LOD sliders so I said “fuk it” and decided to weld them on so I could use them……. RK and LOD both told me they wouldn’t work with the long arm kit…?

Anything happens to them I’ll just cut them off and reassess…..I didn’t want to go through looking for and researching something that would work, but may end up of less quality…..

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[XtremeRetard]

Not knocking long arms at all, people spend their money on "upgrades" that do nothing or even make their vehicle worse. Long arms work well, and have a cool factor. My point was the drop brackets work almost as well for cheap.

That's my understanding from speaking to a few people and having read similar thoughts. I figured for $200 they were worth doing and feedback was good.

 

[Headbarcode]

Ok, so i get long arm angles remain better over the suspension arc.

But surely the most important angle is the one at ride height, when geo and long are near the same. That's where bumps and obstacle climbing first start ..

Sure you get flex after that, but higher angles imply lower load on that end of the axle.

As the angle of the front arms increase at normal ride height, the more resistance there will be when climbing a vertical ledge. This is because, while the tire is climbing up, the arms are also pushing the axle forward until the point where they flatten out.

Same principle applies to on road comfort when hitting bumps. Flatter arms will better soak them up and will feel smoother.

I've got the 4.5" Metalcloak Gamechanger with 6-packs and mid length arms front and rear and no drip brackets. I definitely feel the bumps a bit more than when I had the 3.5" springs. I'm by far not a seasoned offroader, but I didn't have a lick of a problem walking through 6 and 7 rated trails in Windrock Park, and I was aiming for the hardest lines I could find.

As far as total suspension travel with mid arms is concerned, it was too easy to unseat the 3.5" dual rate springs, which is one of the reasons I swapped to the 4.5's. Before the Antirocks, I had a set of the Rock Krawler No Limits front sway links. They inverted during flex testing, and even fully extended were still not long enough. I was on the verge of adding limiting straps before Metalcloak released their new 4.5" springs. The longer springs and sway links are able to keep up with the droop now.

 

[Yellow Cake Kid]

I think the graph is skewed toward long arms as everyone is looking at the Arc from horizontal. With the db3 brackets, the short arms will likely start at or near horizontal at ride height. The long arms will likely be 20⁰ angled down, and short arms in factory mounts would probably be more like 30⁰. With a 12" stroke shock, you likely have 4"-5" of up travel and 7"-8" of down travel. The dropped short arms would be at about the same angle as the long arms at full droop thanks to their more favorable starting position. Nobody wants to admit that they could have gotten the same performance as their long arms for thousands less, but I think it's closer than these graphs alone make it appear.

I think you have it skewed backward. The graphs or drawings based on the horizontal reference tend to de-emphasize the difference in arc paths of the long and short arms, which creates a more favorable impression of the short arm geometry.

In the scenario you have described above, with the long arm resting at a 20-degree angle, 4-5" of up travel, and 7-8" of down travel you will see that the arc path of the 20" arm on a drop bracket deviates dramatically from the path of the long arm arc. This is the range that you suggest is more likely to represent common use.

Full disclosure. I drive the basic 3.5" Game Changer lift on my 2020 Rubicon, so I do not have "a nobody wants to admit that they could have gotten the same performance as their long arms for thousands less" agenda.

I just want to be open to the possibilities that exist.

Here is another generalized illustration comparing a long arm mounted near the frame and a short arm mounted on drop brackets. The rest angles of the control arms will be the result of the spring choice. We can nitpick the position or location of the frame mounts, but in the meantime this illustration should demonstrate that the comparison between long and short arms is less favorable when the control arm angle is placed in the resting position and the resulting range of travel is considered.

 

[XtremeRetard]

As far as total suspension travel with mid arms is concerned, it was too easy to unseat the 3.5" dual rate springs, which is one of the reasons I swapped to the 4.5's. Before the Antirocks, I had a set of the Rock Krawler No Limits front sway links. They inverted during flex testing, and even fully extended were still not long enough. I was on the verge of adding limiting straps before Metalcloak released their new 4.5" springs. The longer springs and sway links are able to keep up with the droop now.

Nice info. Yeah I discovered the 4.5 are 1.5" longer uncompressed than the 3.5 springs. Mine are also loose at full flex. I run the 3.5 currently.

I run 8's at Sand Hollow and there are things I can't climb that I would need 40's for, mainly undercut or steep ledges... One bad (good) spot on Front Range, an 8 rated trail is off camber to driver and you either climb a 4ft vertical wall to get your tire up on that (preferred) or you end up with the tire in a hole and the jeep tipped into the hole pushing your tire deeper, rather than crawling out of the hole... this is where winching to prevent axle breakage comes in

My friend on long arm 40s went up the 4ft wall. Mine wouldn't climb the wall. I think/know I need geo changes to my control arms as they dont want to climb this stuff, they end up digging in. I think flatter angles will help a little more.

I "may" combine that with the 4.5 springs and see how that goes on 37's before heading uncontrollably into 40's.. 37s just fit nice, with tons of options to choose from and no cutting required. Plus the XR HD Dana axles are holding up fine.

Geo changes and springs are WAY cheaper than Axles and 40's so I figure Ill head down that path first...

 

[Headbarcode]

Nice info. Yeah I discovered the 4.5 are 1.5" longer uncompressed than the 3.5 springs. Mine are also loose at full flex. I run the 3.5 currently.

I run 8's at Sand Hollow and there are things I can't climb that I would need 40's for, mainly undercut or steep ledges... One bad (good) spot on Front Range, an 8 rated trail is off camber to driver and you either climb a 4ft vertical wall to get your tire up on that (preferred) or you end up with the tire in a hole and the jeep tipped into the hole pushing your tire deeper, rather than crawling out of the hole... this is where winching to prevent axle breakage comes in

My friend on long arm 40s went up the 4ft wall. Mine wouldn't climb the wall. I think/know I need geo changes to my control arms as they dont want to climb this stuff, they end up digging in. I think flatter angles will help a little more.

I "may" combine that with the 4.5 springs and see how that goes on 37's before heading uncontrollably into 40's.. 37s just fit nice, with tons of options to choose from and no cutting required. Plus the XR HD Dana axles are holding up fine.

Geo changes and springs are WAY cheaper than Axles and 40's so I figure Ill head down that path first...

I was running out of daylight, so I only have pics of the rear 3.5" vs 4.5 spring free length measurements...

I envy your location, being surrounded by trails and having some of the best offroading in the country within driving distance. Sand Hollow is at the top of my list of dream destinations. Offroading is illegal in New York state, so the nearest legal parks are a 3-4 hour drive away in Pennsylvania.

Yeah, the flatter arm angles will allow the tires to climb vertical ledges without the added stress of first having to arc forward during uptravel from normal ride height. The drop brackets will cost a bit of ground clearance, but only in certain specific situations. Their benefits with every climb should undoubtedly far outweigh those specific situations.

 

[Roky]

I was running out of daylight, so I only have pics of the front 3.5" vs 4.5 spring free length measurements...

I envy your location, being surrounded by trails and having some of the best offroading in the country within driving distance. Sand Hollow is at the top of my list of dream destinations. Offroading is illegal in New York state, so the nearest legal parks are a 3-4 hour drive away in Pennsylvania.

Yeah, the flatter arm angles will allow the tires to climb vertical ledges without the added stress of first having to arc forward during uptravel from normal ride height. The drop brackets will cost a bit of ground clearance, but only in certain specific situations. Their benefits with every climb should undoubtedly far outweigh those specific situations.

Hey brother, I think you have a typo…… the springs you’re measuring are the rear measurements, the front coils are 22” for 3.5 lift and 23.5” for the 4.5 lift……

 

[Headbarcode]

Hey brother, I think you have a typo…… the springs you’re measuring are the rear measurements, the front coils are 22” for 3.5 lift and 23.5” for the 4.5 lift……

Thanks for looking out, bro! Fixed it.

 

[c20040215]

 

[Zandcwhite]

I think you have it skewed backward. The graphs or drawings based on the horizontal reference tend to de-emphasize the difference in arc paths of the long and short arms, which creates a more favorable impression of the short arm geometry.

In the scenario you have described above, with the long arm resting at a 20-degree angle, 4-5" of up travel, and 7-8" of down travel you will see that the arc path of the 20" arm on a drop bracket deviates dramatically from the path of the long arm arc. This is the range that you suggest is more likely to represent common use.

Full disclosure. I drive the basic 3.5" Game Changer lift on my 2020 Rubicon, so I do not have "a nobody wants to admit that they could have gotten the same performance as their long arms for thousands less" agenda.

I just want to be open to the possibilities that exist.

Here is another generalized illustration comparing a long arm mounted near the frame and a short arm mounted on drop brackets. The rest angles of the control arms will be the result of the spring choice. We can nitpick the position or location of the frame mounts, but in the meantime this illustration should demonstrate that the comparison between long and short arms is less favorable when the control arm angle is placed in the resting position and the resulting range of travel is considered.

In this illustration yes, the Arc swing is much greater on the short arm, but I think the reality is a drop bracketed arm is starting from flat. In typical driving where the suspension only travels a few inches it will have almost no movement. The long arm is already at 20⁰and will thus likely have more Arc travel in daily driving. Obviously when fully flexed out the short arm will Arc more, but it's closer to the sweet spot for daily driving, on road, or even moderate trails if that makes sense?

 

[Roky]

Not that anybody cares….but I watched every video, and read every article on the planet, several times….. I researched this for near 3 years before getting my kit…. The only one regret , not doing it sooner……?

 

[Yellow Cake Kid]

In this illustration yes, the Arc swing is much greater on the short arm, but I think the reality is a drop bracketed arm is starting from flat. In typical driving where the suspension only travels a few inches it will have almost no movement. The long arm is already at 20⁰and will thus likely have more Arc travel in daily driving. Obviously when fully flexed out the short arm will Arc more, but it's closer to the sweet spot for daily driving, on road, or even moderate trails if that makes sense?

Ok. You suggested 20 degrees so that is what I illustrated.

How about 10 degrees?

Like this:

Here is an animated GIF showing varied comparisons based upon the presumption that the DB3 mounted lower control arm rests at approximately 10 degrees. Note that I extended the previously depicted 36" long arm to the 38" MetalCloak recommends as the starting length for install. Likewise, I used a 20" arm for the GameChanger factory bracket mount and 20.5" arm for the GameChanger DB3 drop bracket mount, which are the respective recommended start lengths.

You may be interested in recognizing how the resting angles of the DB3 mounted 20.5" arm and the 38" long arm are neatly similar.

As mentioned previously, I am just doing this because I am curious.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Ok. You suggested 20 degrees so that is what I illustrated.

How about 10 degrees?

Like this:

Here is an animated GIF showing varied comparisons based upon the presumption that the DB3 mounted lower control arm rests at approximately 10 degrees. Note that I extended the previously depicted 36" long arm to the 38" MetalCloak recommends as the starting length for install. Likewise, I used a 20" arm for the GameChanger factory bracket mount and 20.5" arm for the GameChanger DB3 drop bracket mount, which are the respective recommended start lengths.

You may be interested in recognizing how the resting angles of the DB3 mounted 20.5" arm and the 38" long arm are neatly similar.

As mentioned previously, I am just doing this because I am curious.

Absolutely appreciate the illustrations and time you're putting in to it. I'm not arguing that drop brackets are better at all. I think they are surprisingly similar until you get into really flexed out scenarios. At that point I'd argue that the arc swing is far less important as you'll typically be crawling/ barely moving so the front to back movement won't cause much of an issue. If they cost the same and took the same effort to install, long arms are the obvious choice. Are long arms worth 10x the cost, up to 10x the difficulty to install (depending on if you go bolt on or weld on like rock krawler), and the irreversible nature of long arms? I'd say probably not for most, especially when on road ride will be nearly indistinguishable.

 

[c20040215]

Absolutely appreciate the illustrations and time you're putting in to it. I'm not arguing that drop brackets are better at all. I think they are surprisingly similar until you get into really flexed out scenarios. At that point I'd argue that the arc swing is far less important as you'll typically be crawling/ barely moving so the front to back movement won't cause much of an issue. If they cost the same and took the same effort to install, long arms are the obvious choice. Are long arms worth 10x the cost, up to 10x the difficulty to install (depending on if you go bolt on or weld on like rock krawler), and the irreversible nature of long arms? I'd say probably not for most, especially when on road ride will be nearly indistinguishable.

That is exactly how I would put it.
If I could swing a set of long arm, I would.
For how little the cost is and a small amount of ground clearance, drop brackets are the next best thing. Although, I am still not sure if I would go both front and rear drop brackets. I have the front ones and I am very happy with what they give me.

I have wheeled with two JK with the lock N load, one with 37s and one with 40s. DB3 brackets do cause some clearance issues on 37s. With the 40s, the they almost tuck behind the rear tires.

 

[Roky]

Here’s pic of short arm without drop bracket and long arm, notice the white jounce bump how it’s more centered with long arms, the axle doesn’t get pulled back as much....I’d like to see short arm with drop bracket if anyone is running them yet…. This is 31.25” extended for reference…. Might be different at 28-29” extended.

It’s pretty significant wheeling between short arm without bracket and long arm, especially in the rear, more crab walking or rear steer..… I’m not debating any of this or trying to justify any of it , just giving a visual for those that may not understand what the hell we’re talking about but would like to……lol..

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