Will the BEV J70 be scrapped?

[MaskedRacerX]

Bummer, there's definitely a market, and it's not like Stellantis doesn't have some of the fundamental EV tech in place with their scalable STLA platform, cars in production: Wagoneer S, Compass, some of the Citroen models.

If there would've been a good BEV Wrangler option when we got the '24 4xe (FWIW, had a '21 4xe before that), we might've seriously considered it - that assumes a lot about the execution - but it would've been the only options for us.

Now, on our next round, the Scout (on reservation), may take that BEV/EREV marketspace, or we'll decide that BEV > Wrangler/Bronco-Like-Vehicle (so to speak) and wind up with something like a Rivian R2 (reserved), or even an R1S.

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[258_T18A]

The Recon is confirmed for next year.

I'm not sure why you would need both the Recon and the Wrangler EV in the lineup. Particularly if the Wrangler EV ends up being unibody + independent suspension. Way too much overlap.

Now, if the Recon EV sells like hotcakes, maybe they move forward with the Wrangler EV. If it doesn't sell well, it'll get cancelled along with plans for the future Wrangler EV.

 

[Zandcwhite]

The Recon is confirmed for next year.

I'm not sure why you would need both the Recon and the Wrangler EV in the lineup. Particularly if the Wrangler EV ends up being unibody + independent suspension. Way too much overlap.

Now, if the Recon EV sells like hotcakes, maybe they move forward with the Wrangler EV. If it doesn't sell well, it'll get cancelled along with plans for the future Wrangler EV.

A unibody and independent suspension wrangler is even worse than Ford using the Mustang name on the mach E. I agree there's no point if that's the product. Now if it retains solid axles like the magneto concepts that's a different story. The instant torque at 0 rpm while retaining a JL style suspension would make it the best rock crawling rig to ever come from any factory.

 

[CopperMtnGuy]

If it's not solid axles, the wrangler will be dead. At that point I'd just get a defender, at least the paint doesn't fall off of those. Good experiences with the Land Rovers in my family, at least they design independent suspensions that work okay off road. The Jeep independent suspensions are all trash.

 

[gato]

A major skid plate would have to be installed across the entire battery, especially if it was low between the axles. One hit in the right place without a skid plate and it becomes an instant fireball.

The other concern I would have is how the battery would handle the off road shocks/vibrations and frame flexing/twisting long term. It’s one thing to have them on a smooth highway with an occasional pothole where the suspension takes the hit. It is another thing altogether having the battery twisted/bounced around harshly when the frame/skids take a hit.

You talk as if these things were mysterious or didn't exist. People have been offroading and overlanding Rivians for years. Gwagon EVs are out. All EVs have well protected and skidplated batteries.

As far as Stelantis EV reliability....the Charger is awful. The Wagoneer S is merely very bad. The Recon will probably be just subpar. The Wrangler EV should be OK. They are learning with the Charger/Wagoneer S as we speak.

In theory the reliability of electric motors is orders of magnitude higher than ICE. Batteries are much more reliable the ICE high pressure fuel injection systems. That is why they come with 8 or 10 year warranties. Stellantis would go bankrupt if they offered 8 year warranties on their ICE powertrains.

 

[alphawolff]

Is there really a problem at tesla? Sure sales were down from 23 to 24 for the 1st time in a decade...by a whole 1.1%. I'm pretty sure they'll be fine. Sold more than Stellantis in 2024 by >400,000 vehicles. And Stellantis sales were down by 15% not 1.1%.

Their biggest customer base were big city liberals. Like, over 70%. With the current political climate and Musk making himself a target it's no surprise the largest customer base is looking elsewhere for EVs. Sales in the EU have absolutely tanked in the last few months.

Even before this election cycle their sales were already declining rather steeply. They were constantly cutting prices for new models which destroyed their used market value. You can get a decently loaded used model 3 for the low 20s now. Some dealerships aren't even taking them in as trades due to the excessive inventory.


Stellantis sales dropped because we were overpriced and honestly had complete dogshit quality. Both are easily fixable as we still have a strong brand image overall, versus when you think of Tesla you think of Musk.

In theory the reliability of electric motors is orders of magnitude higher than ICE. Batteries are much more reliable the ICE high pressure fuel injection systems. That is why they come with 8 or 10 year warranties. Stellantis would go bankrupt if they offered 8 year warranties on their ICE powertrains.

I don't think we're going to see any high reliability of BEV vehicles until the Lithium Ion battery is replaced with some other substitute. The only reason they're able to exist in the current market is massive government subsidies combined with offering an absolute insane warranty on the battery pack assembly. If they replace a battery, assuming no other warranty repairs, they've axed most if not all of the profit from building and selling the vehicle. We're seeing a lot of 4XE battery replacements, and those are barely 4 years old. I don't think there's a single product in our fleet that's going to hit the age limit on the battery warranty before getting it replaced at least once.

They aren't offering the warranty because they're confident in the product, they're offering it because if they DIDN'T eat the cost and offer a insane warranty nobody in their right mind would buy a BEV. They're bleeding money in hopes that the prices come down and reliability improves. Or in some cases they're outright trading warranty repairs for less EPA fines.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Their biggest customer base were big city liberals. Like, over 70%. With the current political climate and Musk making himself a target it's no surprise the largest customer base is looking elsewhere for EVs. Sales in the EU have absolutely tanked in the last few months.

Even before this election cycle their sales were already declining rather steeply. They were constantly cutting prices for new models which destroyed their used market value. You can get a decently loaded used model 3 for the low 20s now. Some dealerships aren't even taking them in as trades due to the excessive inventory.


Stellantis sales dropped because we were overpriced and honestly had complete dogshit quality. Both are easily fixable as we still have a strong brand image overall, versus when you think of Tesla you think of Musk.

Everyone's sales dropped... most far more than tesla period. You can make up political reasons as to why, but under that same line of thought sales of trucks and huge suvs should be skyrocketing? Why aren't they? You can buy a used low mileage jeep in the mid to high $20ks too... must be Elons fault?

 

[alphawolff]

Everyone's sales dropped... most far more than tesla period. You can make up political reasons as to why, but under that same line of thought sales of trucks and huge suvs should be skyrocketing? Why aren't they? You can buy a used low mileage jeep in the mid to high $20ks too... must be Elons fault?

I'm not really here to offer politics, just facts. In the last three months Tesla's sales have completely nosedived. We won't see the full impact of this until the next quarter report.

All the other sales drops had reasons associated with them, if they did drop. Ours, for example, was due to our overpriced product and terrible quality. Not everyone had sales drops. Ford and GM were up in comparison.

Teslas, however, have always had terrible quality. The difference they experienced recently were purely due to Musk's political appearances. This is happening despite aggressive price cutting on Tesla's side to help move units. They still aren't selling. IIRC they're working on pushing Musk out of politics in hopes to bolster sales.

Can't really compare us to Tesla in the sales department. Two completely different vehicle brands. We aren't really in the EV market. Yeah, we've got the hilariously broken Charger/Wagoneer, but they weren't really designed to sell in the first place. They were designed to acclimate to Travere's "WE'RE NOT PAYING A SINGLE EMISSIONS FINE EVER AGAIN!!!" motto. We're already pivoting back to ICE applications, as paying fines is better than not selling any vehicles at all.

 

[Zandcwhite]

I'm not really here to offer politics, just facts. In the last three months Tesla's sales have completely nosedived. We won't see the full impact of this until the next quarter report.

All the other sales drops had reasons associated with them, if they did drop. Ours, for example, was due to our overpriced product and terrible quality. Not everyone had sales drops. Ford and GM were up in comparison.

Teslas, however, have always had terrible quality. The difference they experienced recently were purely due to Musk's political appearances. This is happening despite aggressive price cutting on Tesla's side to help move units. They still aren't selling. IIRC they're working on pushing Musk out of politics in hopes to bolster sales.

Can't really compare us to Tesla in the sales department. Two completely different vehicle brands. We aren't really in the EV market. Yeah, we've got the hilariously broken Charger/Wagoneer, but they weren't really designed to sell in the first place. They were designed to acclimate to Travere's "WE'RE NOT PAYING A SINGLE EMISSIONS FINE EVER AGAIN!!!" motto. We're already pivoting back to ICE applications, as paying fines is better than not selling any vehicles at all.

Can't compare the JL to Tesla, which is why I posted Stellantis as a whole. They don't even offer competing vehicles for a huge portion of the Stellantis lineup... and still sell 20% more total volume. It's wild to me that anyone pictures tesla in trouble. The big 3 had a 100 year head start and a much broader lineup... and are being outperformed by 5 models total which are all EVs. Even if they fall by 20% they are still don't better than Stellantis.

 

[alphawolff]

Can't compare the JL to Tesla, which is why I posted Stellantis as a whole. They don't even offer competing vehicles for a huge portion of the Stellantis lineup... and still sell 20% more total volume. It's wild to me that anyone pictures tesla in trouble. The big 3 had a 100 year head start and a much broader lineup... and are being outperformed by 5 models total which are all EVs. Even if they fall by 20% they are still don't better than Stellantis.

Tesla repairs can frequently take 4-6 months to resolve due to part availability and technician resources. Normally I'd say our advantage comes down to 100 years of experience building vehicles in addition to the resources (and supply chain) that comes with the history.

Unfortunately our supply chain is a mess and we have interns developing our software these days. It's a shit show for both brands.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Tesla repairs can frequently take 4-6 months to resolve due to part availability and technician resources. Normally I'd say our advantage comes down to 100 years of experience building vehicles in addition to the resources (and supply chain) that comes with the history.

Unfortunately our supply chain is a mess and we have interns developing our software these days. It's a shit show for both brands.

How many JLs and JTs end up in the shop for months waiting on backorders? 3.6L cams are on a national backorder right now. The high pressure fuel pump recall lead to some waiting 6 months for the replacement in the EcoDiesel. Don't even get me started on the clutch debacle. So 100 years of experience and connections gets you no better quality, worse reliability, and likely worse service departments as a whole? Some advantage? Not pandering to Tesla in any way, but I wish Stellantis was in that little trouble compared to where they actually are.

 

[Ron Texas]

@alphawolff I was tempted to make the same posts as you, but I just did not want to jump into it. Thanks for your valuable input.

I would like to add that Ford has lost over $4 billion on EV's. Fisker and at least 9 other EV manufacturers have gone bankrupt.

 

[av8or]

I think Jeep will have to follow through and build some better BEVs. Worldwide 25% of new vehicles sold are BEV, that same amount of market share has been removed from ICE sales, and it’s only taken 13 or 14 years for that to happen. What will the market look like in another decade? BEVs are here to stay without question and will get nearly all of the R&D money from this point forward.

BTW I still have my Rivian and it’s been the best vehicle I’ve ever owned for over 60k miles, it’s been used off-road a lot (it’s what I do) on many trails up to a rating of 6. If Jeep does come out with a high quality off-road focused BEV I’ll be very interested, especially if it has solid axles, but they better hurry, I’ve been talking to a local shop about doing an EV conversion to a TJ I found missing the engine and transmission.

 

[BXFXJeep]

Worldwide 25% of new vehicles sold are BEV, that same amount of market share has been removed from ICE sales

Half of those EVs were in the highly subsidized communist Chinese market, where "dirty" coal electricity is a lot cheaper than the expensive gas.

Cheap gas and expensive electricity in the US doesn't make much sense for general EV use, especially if the same unreliable dealerships will have to fix them, they still have problems fixing basic gas vehicles, can't take EVs to your trusted neighborhood mechanic to fix.

For EVs to really gain some traction, the government need to cook up schemes to jack up gas prices at least by 10x over electric to force people into EVs, like Europe and carbon taxes in Canada, even then luckily people aren't taking the bait.

Maybe if the greenies didn't artificially jack up the electric rates in America, more people would jump on their cockeyed EV bandwagon.

 

[Ron Texas]

News reports today are that the $7500 EV tax credit will sunset this year and a $200 fee will be charged for all EV's. The fee will be reduced to $100 for hybrids, but it did not specify if this only applies to plug in Hybrids. Would this kill off the 4xe?

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