TrailRecon- Engine Failure

[CorvZ061]

Sadly, the D478 isn't a good option either.

I'm pretty sure we've been over this before, We'll just have to agree to disagree and move on.

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[sherpaJL]

We'll just have to agree to disagree and move on.

 

[BXFXJeep]

In the good ole days the 3.8 ran without oil

 

[Odyssey USA]

Consider watching this before deviating from what the manufacturer recommends:

I watched it. The problem is the boundary layer of the Stribeck Curve. That’s 0 rpm to low rpm use. As to cold flow I’ve observed no measurable time difference after sitting for days in valvetrain noise between a winter weight of 0 or 5. The viscosity difference is worth about 5°C or 9°F. 0w will be the same as a 5w if it’s 5°C or 9°F colder. And there’s no damage in any measurable way that would come from only a 9°F change in oil temp and its resulting viscosity…because it’s the same thing. That would mean all those engines that start up on average 9°F colder temperatures would tend to show more cam failures.

The industry uses cumulative knowledge based on intended usage and physical teardowns so all is well in theory until it’s not. Being a boundary layer issue likely from lack of oiling since it’s most often the same camshaft on bank 1, it’s an oiling system design issue. Contributing factor being the lighter weight of the oil where the boundary layer will irrefutably be thinner. The only option is a higher viscosity. Being that the engine clearances are the same for a 5w-30 spec’s 2012 3.6 (I inquired from a still active automotive machinist on speedtalk forum since I’m no longer in the industry) and a 2018 0w-20 spec’d 3.6. The spec is on par with industry standard of about .001”per inch of journal diameter so it’s not considered tight. Besides, like in racing…for warranty and liability purposes that wouldn’t be wise…so if you’re going to miss it…miss it loose.

I know most of us here take excellent care of their Jeeps. There only seems to be one consistent trend that isn’t viscosity related, it’s oiling system related resulting in valvetrain failure whether it be a collapsed lifter, needle bearing failures or rub block/follower wear leading to the wiped cam lobe. Personally, one band-aid fix worth investigating (maybe Stellantis, FCA, or Daimler already did) would be a higher volume oil pump.

Based on mine and others research here, it seems the best bet to MAYBE stave off the problem is more frequent oil changes at minimum. Perhaps even more pricey higher ester content oils where higher ester content maintains the best boundary layer between metal parts.

Lastly, when you build an engine that’s a new combination, you have a good idea what will work best. If you want to go fast, make more power, you’ll tighten those clearances as much as possible so you don’t need to drive that oil pump as much, which would have resulted in more parasitic loss and have more oil suspended in the crankcase causing windage losses. When you do that, tighten oil clearances, you can try to run thinner oil and if the teardown looks good, you can try to go even tighter. Going too tight or too thin on the oil gives you LESS margin for error. Well, every engine will have different margins and the OEM has been pushed to ride the edge more than in the past.

If a manufacturer decides “life of the engine” is only 150k miles, they will recommend that 0w-20 if they get that .4mpg, a little extra power, and have reasonable assurance it’s going to at least get past warranty before they have liability exposure. Thing is, between two choices, they err’d toward that side, given their design flaw, rather than that of longevity in order to also avoid an actual EPA penalty for each and every vehicle due to loss in fuel economy…like GM will experience with the 6.2 resulting from the change to recommending a 0w-40 now instead of 0w-20 for all of those covered under the recall.

Again, I think it’s prudent to try to change the oil more often, at minimum.

 

[Jeep Junkie]

I am at 19,000 miles and nervous Should I change my oil every 2000 miles?

 

[Jeep Junkie]

But guys, Trail Recon is in the minority. Most of our 3.6s are rocking here. Trail Recon just got unlucky. Lets be positive and change our fluids regularly. Maybe Trail Recon didn't do a couple of breakin oil changes and used crappy dealer oil. Plus his Gladiator is so freakin haevy, he was about to brake his frame too.

 

[dstevens]

... I'm also considering swapping to a bumper that lowers the winch down ...

I think it has already been pointed out that the winch location makes little difference. Even at 60 mph the fan provides the bulk of the cooling air for the radiator.

This is not criticism directed at you, but people always forget that the radiator flow is based on the difference in pressure from one side to the other, and the low pressure side is more important than the high pressure side. And we mess up the low pressure side by lifting the Jeep, removing the air dam and changing the rake. Anyhow, we rely on the radiator fan for cooling on the Jeep.

The real head scratcher is why the PCM is set for the fan on low at 219F and then high at 230F. It is a variable speed fan, and it is easy to change the PCM so that the fan comes on at say 205F at 10% speed and then ramps up to 100% speed at 220F. This is zero cost for Stellantis. Customers probably would not even notice the noise. Fuel economy would probably not change. Why Stellantis? I guess that is second on their list after fixing the V6 rocker issue, and that's taken 14 years so far.

 

[Jeep Junkie]

I think it has already been pointed out that the winch location makes little difference. Even at 60 mph the fan provides the bulk of the cooling air for the radiator.

This is not criticism directed at you, but people always forget that the radiator flow is based on the difference in pressure from one side to the other, and the low pressure side is more important than the high pressure side. And we mess up the low pressure side by lifting the Jeep, removing the air dam and changing the rake. Anyhow, we rely on the radiator fan for cooling on the Jeep.

The real head scratcher is why the PCM is set for the fan on low at 219F and then high at 230F. It is a variable speed fan, and it is easy to change the PCM so that the fan comes on at say 205F at 10% speed and then ramps up to 100% speed at 220F. Customers probably would not even notice the noise. Fuel economy would probably not change. Why Stellantis? I guess that is second on their list after fixing the V6 rocker issue, and that's taken 14 years so far.

My bumper and winch don't block the air. What do you think?

 

[Jeep Junkie]

Something that I've been thinking of/waiting for:

Let's say my 3.6 goes out after warranty. What's the best solution for my desired long-term ownership. I've spent some money on the upgrades to the jeep that I want, what's the best course of action when it comes to engine replacement. Yes...obviously a hemi, but what I'm looking for is the best value based on performance and adaptability.

Please keep in mind:
2-door
Manual trans - upgraded clutch.


LS Swap?
5.7 Hemi?
Another 3.6?

Cummins 2.8

 

[AVGeek99]

To summarize for those that haven't watched: other than very specific scenarios, you're a fucking idiot if you use a viscosity other than what was recommended by the manufacturer.

He actually included a qualifier. This probably isn't word for word, but he said something like if the engine was designed for lower viscocity oils and there are no manufacturing issues then using a thicker oil will not provide any benefit. Let's assume the 3.6 was designed for 0W20, that just leaves manufacturing issues. The rocker arm failure is clearly an issue. So then the question... Will thicker oil help with the rocker arm issue? Of course not addressed by the video, because it was focused on the GM recall. So who can answer this question?

The fact that there are 12k cams on back order will hopefully shine a spotlight on this problem and it will get more attention.

All I can speak to is my own experience. I've had this issue twice. The first time at 26k miles. I don't know when the tick started, probably around 22k miles or so; the drivetrain is so loud to begin with I didn't think anything of it. Then at 26k miles I got a CEL while in Moab. I had to take it all the way to Grand Junction, CO to get it serviced under warranty. Thankfully, they had the parts and squeezed me into the schedule. They replaced the driver's side intake cam, rockers, and lifters. It cut my Moab trip short by 5 days, but I made it home on time.

The second time was less than a year later. At about 40k miles I noticed the tick again. Took it to a local dealer for an oil change; they said the sound was normal. Then the next oil change at about 43-44k miles they agreed it was not right. They ended up replacing the same driver's side intake cam, rockers, and lifters.

At that point I started changing the oil myself with 20k mile Mobile 1 5W30; I change every 5k miles. I'm now just under 70k miles and it's running great; the tick has not returned. Is it the 5W30? Did I get a better set of rockers the second time around? Am I paying too much for oil? For the last question, probably. For all three questions, I don't care. There's no sign of the issue returning and I'm at about the same mileage (26k) or a little more than when the issue first occurred.

 

[AVGeek99]

I guess I should count myself (for now) lucky as I got my 2019 JLUR 3.6L with 22,000 miles on it and now have 125,000 miles on it and actually plan to finally get off my butt and change the spark plugs tomorrow. I had made a short video asking to get feedback if I have a tick or not from my engine:

I've had the failed rocker arm issue twice. Both times they replaced the driver's side intake cam, rockers, and lifters. It's a little tough to tell for sure, but it sounds like there is a tick on your drivers side. You should probably open it up and check it out.

 

[mcaltitude]

For those that might be thinking about tweaking the viscosity of their oil (as mentioned in the video):

dear lord. Why did you do this? That other 0w-20 thread is on reply 1,500 or more at this point.

 

[AVGeek99]

He was lucky to have it happen before the trip, despite his obvious stress. It would have really sucked to be in the middle of nowhere Alaska and have something really bad happen.

I had this issue while I was on a trip in Moab in 2023. I got a CEL and was losing power going up any sort of incline. I had to take it all the way to Grand Junction to get it serviced under warranty. Thankfully they had the parts on had and were able to squeeze me in. Cut my trip short, but at least I made it home on schedule.

 

[Willys41]

If you are going to change your oil yourself a magnetic drain plug is a good indicator that there is a problem.
Be it cam cast iron or needle bearing failing. So fare mine has been clean.

 

[jadmt]

what came first the chicken or the egg?

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