TrailRecon- Engine Failure

[UncleJimmy]

Skeptical this is about oil. To me, this is a design and or manufacturing problem. Poor quality of the metal, no roller on the lifters. What is this an engine made in 1965?

I'm not so sure a hemi swap would be a remedy, same engineers, manufacturer, ticks.

I agree, partially.

I don't think, in the absence of any other factors, that the 0w-20 oil (by itself) causes the issue, therefor there must be some design and/or build quality issues. However, that doesn't mean heavier oil might not help (look at GM V8s recommending 0w-40). Even if the metal was substandard, there should really be a film of oil between the parts preventing wear i.e. boundary layer, therefor a thicker oil has a better chance of creating a boundary layer between the parts and reducing wear.

IMO to have the best chance at avoiding this issue we should look at all the possibilities and then try to address them as best as possible.

Here are some possibilities and some actionable items that may help to counter them:

• Engine design flaw where the top is oil starved in idling state. Solution: increase viscosity to keep oil film from draining from top; don't idle for too long, and if idling give it some gas to increase oil pressure.
• Varnish build up in engine passages (either by itself or in conjunction with point above) thereby causing oil starvation. Solution: decrease varnish build up.
• Coolant leak from oil cooler design with cooler/oil passages sharing adjacent gaskets. Solution: update oil cooler to updated design, manage heat to prevent gasket warpage.

So how do we implement those solutions:

• Increase viscosity: 1. keep eye on oil temps and keep engine cool/avoid heat soaking and frequent heating/cooling cycles though Tazer cooldown/RPM fan controller/venting hood etc. In addition, the cooler the engine temps the higher the viscosity. 2. I run 0/5w-40.
• Decrease varnish build up: 1. Frequent oil changes (my schedule is 2500/3 mos). 2. Seafoam crankcase before OC. 3. Run the best Top Tier fuels (not all equal) and use Techron and or other fuel treatments. These fuel treatments will mix with oil and make their way to crankcase through fuel dilution. The PUG has certain design features to minimize friction (such as low-tension piston rings) which have the side effect of increasing fuel dilution/sludge buildup etc. In addition I run a catch can to help keep blow by oil from being re-injested back into engine from PVC system etc.
• I intend to update my cooler when I change out the spark plugs, but more importantly I manage the oil temps and keep them low.

If I were to put these items in a list to keep it simple, this is what it would look like:

1. 0/5w-40 oil
2. 2-3K mi OCI
3. Keep oil temps cool at all times.
4. Seafoam crankcase
5. Fuel treatments (Techron)
6. Use best Top Tier fuels.
7. Vent hood.
8. Catch can.
9. Replace oil cooler with latest part #.

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[Jeep Junkie]

Yep, even though he clearly stated otherwise. Sticking our heads in the sand doesn't make this or other fundamental issues go away. This one, like many others, is well known.

8 out of 10 Pentasters have been rock solid though. That's a very healthy number

 

[Lionel Hutz]

8 out of 10 Pentasters have been rock solid though. That's a very healthy number

Is it though?

Not sure if serious

 

[UncleJimmy]

I am at 19,000 miles and nervous Should I change my oil every 2000 miles?

As you know my interval is 2500/3mos. The last few OCs where under 2000 mi (1700 mi).

I don't need a new oil filter change at that mi and the cost of 5 quarts of Mobil 1 FS Euro 0w-40 is under $28.

With filter every other OC thats around $140 p/year.

 

[Jeep Junkie]

I agree, partially.

I don't think, in the absence of any other factors, that the 0w-20 oil (by itself) causes the issue, therefor there must be some design and/or build quality issues. However, that doesn't mean heavier oil might not help (look at GM V8s recommending 0w-40). Even if the metal was substandard, there should really be a film of oil between the parts preventing wear i.e. boundary layer, therefor a thicker oil has a better chance of creating a boundary layer between the parts and reducing wear.

IMO to have the best chance at avoiding this issue we should look at all the possibilities and then try to address them as best as possible.

Here are some possibilities and some actionable items that may help to counter them:

• Engine design flaw where the top is oil starved in idling state. Solution: increase viscosity to keep oil film from draining from top; don't idle for too long, and if idling give it some gas to increase oil pressure.
• Varnish build up in engine passages (either by itself or in conjunction with point above) thereby causing oil starvation. Solution: decrease varnish build up.
• Coolant leak from oil cooler design with cooler/oil passages sharing adjacent gaskets. Solution: update oil cooler to updated design, manage heat to prevent gasket warpage.

So how do we implement those solutions:

• Increase viscosity: 1. keep eye on oil temps and keep engine cool/avoid heat soaking and frequent heating/cooling cycles though Tazer cooldown/RPM fan controller/venting hood etc. In addition, the cooler the engine temps the higher the viscosity. 2. I run 0/5w-40.
• Decrease varnish build up: 1. Frequent oil changes (my schedule is 2500/3 mos). 2. Seafoam crankcase before OC. 3. Run the best Top Tier fuels (not all equal) and use Techron and or other fuel treatments. These fuel treatments will mix with oil and make their way to crankcase through fuel dilution. The PUG has certain design features to minimize friction (such as low-tension piston rings) which have the side effect of increasing fuel dilution/sludge buildup etc. In addition I run a catch can to help keep blow by oil from being re-injested back into engine from PVC system etc.
• I intend to update my cooler when I change out the spark plugs, but more importantly I manage the oil temps and keep them low.

If I were to put these items in a list to keep it simple, this is what it would look like:

1. 0/5w-40 oil
2. 2-3K mi OCI
3. Keep oil temps cool at all times.
4. Seafoam crankcase
5. Fuel treatments (Techron)
6. Use best Top Tier fuels.
7. Vent hood.
8. Catch can.
9. Replace oil cooler with latest part #.

Sir long time no see. I religiously use your tazer technique to keep things cool. I just did it at Starbucks drive-thru

 

[Jeep Junkie]

Is it though?

Not sure if serious

I did a poll 80% said no problems

 

[Jeep Junkie]

As you know my interval is 2500/3mos. The last few OCs where under 2000 mi (1700 mi).

I don't need a new oil filter change at that mi and the cost of 5 quarts of Mobil 1 FS Euro 0w-40 is under $28.

With filter every other OC thats around $140 p/year.

Thanks. Maybe if you order it by case, it would be cheaper on Walmart

 

[UncleJimmy]

They all make some noise under certain conditions. They have a very complex and sometimes noisy valve train.

If you get the bad tick, there won´t be any mistaking it. If you are not sure, then you probably don´t have anything to worry about.

And different oils won´t necessarily help. I have a buddy that puts a quart of super heavy Lucas Oil Stabilizer (which is snake oil garbage) into his 2012 Pentastar along with 5 quarts of 5w30, effectively making it something like a 40 or 50 weight and his makes as much racket as I´ve ever heard on one running 0w20.

I had a guy ask me once if my JL was a diesel. It was cold and idling at the trailhead for Hells Revenge. I stepped out and was surprised at how much noise it was making. I don´t think I had even 20,000 miles on it yet. Maybe only 10k to 15k. And here she is at 103k and runs perfectly and mostly quietly. But again, sometimes it makes that racket. Weird. But normal.

Heavier Oils always quiet the valve train - considerably.

I wonder about the stress on the engine from the weight of the trailer (loaded) that he pulled and other gear, along with the large tires, and how long before he re-geared.

Epic Family u-tubers eventually had a similar issue with their JLUR v6 after many more miles. They haul a lot of weight and pulled a small trailer for many years, and then extended their jeep body.

The good news is the automatic transmission seems to be holding up.

My guess is the load probably helps as higher load forces higher engine rpm which equals higher oil pressure/more oil. My suspicion is it's more from low pressure/oil starvation/low viscosity.... Same with the HEMI BTW.

 

[Jeep Junkie]

As you know my interval is 2500/3mos. The last few OCs where under 2000 mi (1700 mi).

I don't need a new oil filter change at that mi and the cost of 5 quarts of Mobil 1 FS Euro 0w-40 is under $28.

With filter every other OC thats around $140 p/year.

Sir, some naysayers to short oil changes say that the detergent in the new oil is very strong, and it will wash away the anti-wear additives on the surface of the engine. And that the wear metals in the early stages of the new oil are higher because of that. So they say that super short oil changes is not a good idea Do you think they're right?

 

[Jeep Junkie]

Yep, even though he clearly stated otherwise. Sticking our heads in the sand doesn't make this or other fundamental issues go away. This one, like many others, is well known.

There is a senior Jeep mechanic named Max who in the comment section tells him exactly what caused the issue. It has something to do with his modified exhaust thingy that lead to heat build-up. Trail Recon modified the engine, bad idea.

 

[UncleJimmy]

Sir, some naysayers to short oil changes say that the detergent in the new oil is very strong, and it will wash away the anti-wear additives on the surface of the engine. And that the wear metals in the early stages of the new oil are higher because of that. So they say that super short oil changes is not a good idea Do you think they're right?

No.

The most important characteristic of engine oil is viscosity.

If detergents are strong in new oil, so is viscosity and anti-friction/wear additives.

Personally, I suspect varnish buildup contributing to oil starvation. What causes varnish? Answer: old oil, oil getting too hot or frequent heating cycles, lack of quality detergents in the fuel, fuel dilution from poor atomization of fuel in combustion chamber from clogged injectors, fuel dilution from low tension piston rings and/or sticking piston rings, exasperated from increased injestion of blow by oil via PVC/lack of catch can etc. etc.

 

[Jeep Junkie]

Guys, it is all about stupid heat. Don't do any mods to the engine. Keep your Pentastar cool

 

[UncleJimmy]

There is a senior Jeep mechanic named Max who in the comment section tells him exactly what caused the issue. It has something to do with his modified exhaust thingy that lead to heat build-up. Trail Recon modified the engine, bad idea.

These engines are prone regardless of his exhaust. It's cat back and has ZERO to do with valve train failure.

 

[UncleJimmy]

No.

The most important characteristic of engine oil is viscosity.

If detergents are strong in new oil, so is viscosity and anti-friction/wear additives.

Personally, I suspect varnish buildup contributing to oil starvation. What causes varnish? Answer: old oil, oil getting too hot or frequent heating cycles, lack of quality detergents in the fuel, fuel dilution from poor atomization of fuel in combustion chamber from clogged injectors, fuel dilution from low tension piston rings and/or sticking piston rings, exasperated from increased injestion of blow by oil via PVC/lack of catch can etc. etc.

EDIT: With my engine I had severe LSPI (engine knock) develop at around 30 k mi (shortly after I bought the Jeep used) and then cured it 100% with some treatments. This tells me that the varnish was building up in the combustion chamber (probably on the piston heads) and those treatments cleaned the carbon and cured the problem.

 

[Ratbert]

8 out of 10 Pentasters have been rock solid though. That's a very healthy number

Note that your "thingy" mentality makes it challenging to determine if you're serious or not, especially when talking about "Pentasters".

I personally am not fond of the taste of pens, but I'll let those pen tasters do their thing. Maybe it's an untapped market for pics of @Flip's feet? Neither sounds tasty to me, but hell, this is America.

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