Jeep snobbery - RANT

[wibornz]

No, you don't. You can't say you believe in the ideal and then champion the things you have.

Is being an asshole worthy of violating established law in a flawed attempt to make another 'responsible' for their speech? You retired from corrections, you should know the answer to that.

So if you deem someone an asshole who says something you find extremely offensive, you're advocating physically assaulting them.

Seems to me, the people you used to oversee would agree. Society and a court of law do not however.



And words, by their nature, are not actions.



You're just proving my point about not having learned that words only have the power over you that you allow them to. Under the ideal of free speech, you have no control over what others may say...you can only control how you react to those things; by shrugging it off or countering. Internalizing the commentary shouldn't be the default, but it is in our society b/c we don't teach our children their self worth. I find less intelligent folks will resort to violence rather than reason.

What you're also apparently unknowingly advocating is not only censorship (which is anathema to the ideal of free speech in the first place) b/c "words can be harmful" but the same sort of "safe space" mentality leftists espouse....just at the other end of the spectrum where violence is the correct response....that so many Americans have started to adopt.

Are words really that big of threat to our ego? Clearly they are. And that's sad.



And a weak psyche will always bear scars due to inappropriate evaluations of self worth and a lack of confidence in one's ethos. We must change ourselves if we seek to change the world. Or as Ghandi put it, "If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him."

You must of got your degree from the University of Phoenix. You can't read or at least comprehend what I wrote. You act like I am running around punching people in the face. Maybe a good question to ask is how many people I have punched in the face for their free speech? Zero..... would be the answer. You see in real life, people don't act like that around me. You act like I have never been verbally assaulted while working in a correctional facility? You act like I think every persons opinion is valued by me. Yet if you knew me you would realize that I basically don't get any self value from other people. I make honest assessments of people and their actions. In my world what someone says means very little to me. I believe in action over someone running their mouth.

People that talk shit on the internet are what we call a cell gangster in prison. When out on the rock, you are all cool, then when you get in your cell, and you are safe, you talk shit. Don't think that that corrections staff don't do that either. We called the staff hallway gangsters, as soon as the prisoner is locked up behind the steel door they talk shit to the prisoner knowing that they can't be punched in the face.

Does society set laws that determine when someone has crossed the line. Yes. an that is why some people deserve to get punched in the face and don't. As I used to tell mouthy prisoners. The only reason you are talking that mad crap is because you know that I will not punch you in the face. If I worked at McDonalds though, I would climb or the counter and take you to task. They are no different that shit talking trolls on the internet. Every person before they talk trash in real life makes an assessment. I am talking face to face life, makes an assessment before they talk shit, if they will get punched in the face for it. If they believe they they will get punched in the face, they shut up. If they think that they will not get punched in the face they continue. The person on the other side also make the same assessment. If they punch them in the face, can they win the physical confrontation, is it worth the effort or risk.

Fights and wars have started many times over mere words. Now this is just a feeling on my end. I would have to say that many people that have interacted with you have though to themselves man you need to be punched in the mouth, but you are just not worth it. Maybe I am wrong. I would certainly hope that I am wrong.

And a weak psyche....... yeah, nobody see a phycologist/therapist for getting punched in the mouth. They see them because they have been mentality beat down.

So in closing, just know that punching someone in the face was a metaphorical statement. If I was to strike someone (based on the guiding principles of the Use of Force continuum) and I have, I usually use a forearm strike to the brachial plexus origin.

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[wibornz]

I love all Jeeps, even my daily driver. I seldom get waves in the shit box XJ.. (SBXJ) when I do it is usually other SBXJ drivers. I appreciate all of the Jeeps. Why because the person that bought it loved it and in my eyes that is awesome.

While I leave my JLUR in the garage, this is my daily driver. So if you are driving a wrangler and you see this SBXJ in the greater Michigan area, give it a wave.

On the day this pic was taken, the SBXJ was steaming mad at me and wanted some attention. So I spent 11.99 on it and put a new water pump in it.

I think it was mad because I put Milestar Patagonia tires on it instead of Cooper STT PROs.

 

[Zotch]

I don't care what year you have, what trim you drive, or whether or not you take it offroad. I'm just tired of seeing these damn things.

You know you love "The Grumper"

Just admit it

 

[wibornz]

Ted,

Your ideological inconsistency isn't a problem with my comprehension; it's an example of your alleged principles not matching up to your stated position on this issue; which is why I suspect you're getting so hostile in this conversation. People don't like having that pointed out b/c it's uncomfortable to have to rethink one's long held belief structure.

I said no such thing about YOU punching anyone...I said your comment was advocating that mindset should the aggressor feel warranted or slighted by mere words.

I also said nothing about any altercations you had while working, how you feel about yourself, how you feel about others' opinions, or your assessments of other's words vs. actions. I spoke to humanity's nature in general, not you specifically as I do not know you. Surely you see that you're taking a whole lot of offense to things I never even said.

And for the 2nd time (not that you were required to read my other comment to someone else)...let me reiterate: I'm not talking about internet discussions primarily. I'm talking face to face. But thank you for enlightening me to the goings on within a correction facility. Our mindsets are quite different with regard to discussing a hot button topic, and that's obviously fueled in your instance by your employment history (had I stayed in the LE capacity I had in college I'd likely have that same mindset). Definitely interesting stuff; just not relevant to what I'm talking about specifically so I won't speak to it beyond that.

You seem to be trying quite hard to shift the discussion to avoid the discontinuity in your position, that you believe in free speech, but not to the point where people can actually say whatever they wish without advocating the fear of physical violence. We agree, that society's laws are primarily the reason for why people who run their mouths don't always "get what they deserve" as the subjective viewer sees it.

To use your own tactic: "You act like I" am saying people SHOULD say reprehensible things and not expect an ass beating. That's not the case. They should expect it, but the listener shouldn't oblige them. I'm also *not* saying violence doesn't have its place. It most certainly does. This just isn't it.

Most wars are started over ideals that are expressed in words. Our country was founded upon violent dissent and controversial ideals....of which freedom of speech is a cornerstone. Knowing that and having just stated (and hopefully recognizing) the power of words to not only inspire but also condemn, you still advocate censorship through violence if the listener deems it justified. You really don't see the contradiction?

I really appreciate your ad hominems though. I have a feeling, even though I've done nothing but challenge your ideas in this conversation (Notice, I haven't called you any names, implied you were stupid/couldn't read, had a poor education or said you deserve to be punched in the face for advocating violence to stifle speech)....something tells me if we were in person, you'd be thinking, "man you need to be punched in the mouth, but you are just not worth it". Your justification for that thought would likely be, "It's not what you said, but how you said it". Which just speaks to what's wrong with your "version" of free speech.

Yeah...physically abused children are never "punched in the mouth" by abusive parents and need psychiatric help. Obviously, there's mental abuse too....they usually go hand in hand. However, in the well adjusted person's psyche, they don't internalize every nasty comment they hear about themselves for a variety of reasons, but I digress.

You just don't seem to understand that free speech is between you and your government. It is not between individuals. An individual has the right to not listen to you. For instance, I can click ignore on this form and never have to read any thread that you post. You can freely say what ever you want, that does not mean that someone will not beat your ass for it. You are depending on the government to save you from an ass beating when you talk all disrespectful to an individual.

You make poor assessments. You have not challenged my belief structure. If anything, you have re-enforced it. I am not hostile. I think this whole back and forth is hilarious. I do not speak for others. I realize I have no control over others nor do I try to assert control over others. You spoke to humanity's nature in general???? That's funny and stupid all at the same time. Like what is general for you is general for everybody else.

You wrote, " the power of words to not only inspire but also condemn, you still advocate censorship through violence if the listener deems it justified. You really don't see the contradiction?"

No, I did not write that I advocate censorship through violence. I advocate that respect and decent behavior can be achieved through violence. For instance, if you get punched in the mouth for being disrespectful and not decent to someone, You will not act that way towards them again. Well if you are stupid, you might. You may still be disrespectful and not decent to others, but you will pick who you are disrespectful to. I have seen this played out many times.

Now back to Jeep stuff.

 

[T_square]

I do feel like the Sahara trim gets treated as the awkward middle child. Too “luxurious” to fit in with the “rugged” Jeep stereotype, and no real obvious advent to buying them besides personal preference. Used sports are cheap, and get the job done for nearly half the price of a new decked out Rubicon, but Rubicon’s have all the juicy off-road stuff. Some people just like what the Sahara has to offer, and you don’t have to justify that to anybody that tries to gatekeep the community

 

[agpthng]

I'm 58 & never had a Jeep (any model) bout to take delivery of a 21 sport. First snobbery I noticed was sharing with some of my friends, and none of them have ever had a Jeep either. "you should have gotten a Rubicon". I asked why & the response was "cause they are badass". I did my homework & got the right model for me & I'll likely never see anything more than snow & a gravel road with it.

Same here - 58 and a woman and I get this is your second one - I would have thought you would upgrade to a Rubicon from your 07 JK 2 door. I did upgrade, it's new, 4 doors and electric (rather it wasn't all electric but that's what they had that fit my wallet). I don't want to pay the price for a Rubicon. I have a husband that is a great off road driver and I'm ok at it. But this JLU doesn't have the protection underneath that my JK had so this one probably won't go to the same places we took my 07 JK but it's mine and that's fine. Enjoy your ride let the comments roll of your back like a duck lol.

 

[JEEPIDON]

I think all of the "sensitives" here imagine that they are being talked or looked down upon. Why would anyone give a shit what someone else thinks of your vehicle...unless they have a financial stake in it?

I always get a kick out of the "word smiths" that try to come off like Plato's speech writer to impress ....themselves?? People love to write reams of shit so they can read it back to themselves and feel warm and great.

They're all friggin Jeeps, doesn't make any difference of what model or options....they are all Jeeps.

When I was a kid and acted jealous over my cousin having better toys than I did, my father (ultra conservative) simply said: 'Get over it. Don't be jealous of what someone else has, if you want the same get off your ass and go get it".

I've lived by that rule since I was 8 years old.

God bless everyone that goes out, works hard, makes a positive impact in their community and gets what they want. I won't look down or criticize what you have done on your own.

 

[Zandcwhite]

This is going to ruffle some feathers, but here it goes nonetheless.

I have owned 9 Wranglers over a 12-year period; a mix of Saharas and Rubicons, 2-doors and 4-doors, soft tops and hardtops, manuals and automatics. I have taken them to the beach, to the mountains, to the desert, to work, to the mall and to National Parks. I have driven them in snow, in the rain, over ice, rocks and sand dunes; in July 120 degrees in Death Valley and in -25 degrees in January in Colorado.

Eight of those Wranglers were JKs. My first one was a 2008 2-door Sahara I bought used: it was a base with a 6-speed manual and a soft top, but I was hooked. At one time I owned two of them side-by-side: one was a 2-door Rubicon for the trails; the other was a 4-door Sahara for long road trips in winter. What I have always loved about Wranglers is that I can pack and go at any time, any time of year, without concern for the terrain or the weather; I just know my Jeep will get me there and back.

My last JK was a top-of-the-line 2018 JKUR Recon. It was the most expensive Wrangler I ever bought but it was a disappointment: the assembly quality was terrible; it rattled and squeaked; the body panels were grossly misaligned; the ride was harsh. To make matters worse, my local dealer was a total dickhead with the warranty. Hardly what you expect from a $52,000 price tag —even after having owned several JKs before. In hindsight, it was a mistake buying that last Rubicon.

When I shopped for a JL I test drove a dozen of them; a mix of Rubicons and Saharas, 2-doors and 4-doors; manual and automatic. I had relocated from California to Washington so I found myself doing less extreme off-roading, but more extreme weather. The availability of Selec-Trac was more appealing than a swaybar disconnect or lockers; and after the harsh ride on that JK Recon, comfort grew in importance.

I found a sweet deal on an unsold 2018 Sahara sitting 1,000 miles away. I picked it up a year ago: the Selec-Trac is just awesome in the snow; the drive and ride is refined and comfortable; it can tackle the off-road trails around here with ease; the fit-and-finish is excellent, and it’s been totally trouble-free so far. I am tickled happy with it.

However, I find something’s fundamentally changed with the advent of JL. Perhaps the new prices make JLs too “precious.” Or JL is attracting a greater number of first-time buyers who don’t know the Wrangler “code” yet. Or FCA has gone overboard and turned Wrangler into a status symbol. Whatever the reason, I find it is now common to be looked down upon for not driving the “right” type of Wrangler. I now feel I have to justify why I drive a Sahara, something I never had to before. Some may not realize this, but Sahara owners regularly get accused of being poor drivers, bad off-roaders, mall crawlers, even poseurs, all because we drive a Sahara. Ironically, half the time we get lectured by Rubicon owners who never even take their Jeeps off-road. I try not to be oversensitive to it, but it is just weird.

Do Sport owners get this too?

One of the nice things of being part of the Jeep community was the feeling of close camaraderie, no matter what Wrangler you drove. I never felt I had to justify why I drove a Sahara, or whatever. A Wrangler was a Wrangler and that was that.

Feel free to reply, agree, disagree, joke, flame, share your hypothesis, but please let’s keep it civil.

I think a big part of it comes down to the dollars and cents of it. If you are buying the sahara because you want the select trac, it is the best option. If you are buying the sahara because it's a few grand cheaper, only to turn around and put a 2" lift, 33's, and rocker guards to make it more off road worthy, you probably should have bought a rubicon. I think sport owners get more of a pass on the criticism because they still saved money after building the jeep up to stock rubicon clearance and protection. Those of us out running 37's and hard trails would be foolish to have started with a sahara. Axles, gears, lockers, lift, fenders, protection, sway bar disconnects, will quickly have the sahara build way over the rubicon price tag. I think some of the hard times given are just good natured ribbing because you drive the luxo-jeep. Drive what you like, it is still a jeep. We wheeled the hell out of my wife's 01 grand Cherokee limited, you should have heard the shit we would get at the malls, until they saw us out on the Rubicon and realized that mall crawler would hang with their wrangler all day on the trail and then walk away from them going up donner pass thanks to the v8.

 

[sixspeed]

I totally agree with you, and I find myself guilty of making fun of Sahara owners. But also a few rubi owners.

I live in LA and this place is infested with mall crawlers. I moved from VT to CA a few years ago and was surprised at the amount of people driving new cars, people here spend so much on image. They might live in a shithole and own a recon.

The vast majority of Jeeps are mall rated here, specially Saharas followed by Rubis. People who never even leave the city, they dont even go hiking or camping or wtver, yet alone offroading. They buy Saharas because of the price tag and name.

When I went to buy my Jeep I was behaving like the cheapest ever trying to save every penny I could. The lady at the dealer that was helping us was very excited because next year she might qualify for a Sahara... man she must be making like what? $15hr tops. And she was surprised I said I was gonna take mine off road. A new JL!! she said, most people here say they dont want to offroad, she said.

There is a stereotype for Sahara owners followed by Rubicons. They buy these jeeps for the status symbol they provide around their social circle, because they feel theyre missing something. That stereotype is real in LA.

Jeep should make a new special model for LA with 20inch wheels, angry grill and covered with chrome accents and call it "Megatroncon" It would sell like candy.

But that doesnt mean there arent thousands of owners like you who found great deals on Saharas or Rubis, and obviously benefit from the extra features. You got the big brakes already!

And even all these people throwing all their cash for a show jeep, it is their money and their choice, and theyre happy. So whatever. But we can still laugh about it!

This is going to ruffle some feathers, but here it goes nonetheless.

I have owned 9 Wranglers over a 12-year period; a mix of Saharas and Rubicons, 2-doors and 4-doors, soft tops and hardtops, manuals and automatics. I have taken them to the beach, to the mountains, to the desert, to work, to the mall and to National Parks. I have driven them in snow, in the rain, over ice, rocks and sand dunes; in July 120 degrees in Death Valley and in -25 degrees in January in Colorado.

Eight of those Wranglers were JKs. My first one was a 2008 2-door Sahara I bought used: it was a base with a 6-speed manual and a soft top, but I was hooked. At one time I owned two of them side-by-side: one was a 2-door Rubicon for the trails; the other was a 4-door Sahara for long road trips in winter. What I have always loved about Wranglers is that I can pack and go at any time, any time of year, without concern for the terrain or the weather; I just know my Jeep will get me there and back.

My last JK was a top-of-the-line 2018 JKUR Recon. It was the most expensive Wrangler I ever bought but it was a disappointment: the assembly quality was terrible; it rattled and squeaked; the body panels were grossly misaligned; the ride was harsh. To make matters worse, my local dealer was a total dickhead with the warranty. Hardly what you expect from a $52,000 price tag —even after having owned several JKs before. In hindsight, it was a mistake buying that last Rubicon.

When I shopped for a JL I test drove a dozen of them; a mix of Rubicons and Saharas, 2-doors and 4-doors; manual and automatic. I had relocated from California to Washington so I found myself doing less extreme off-roading, but more extreme weather. The availability of Selec-Trac was more appealing than a swaybar disconnect or lockers; and after the harsh ride on that JK Recon, comfort grew in importance.

I found a sweet deal on an unsold 2018 Sahara sitting 1,000 miles away. I picked it up a year ago: the Selec-Trac is just awesome in the snow; the drive and ride is refined and comfortable; it can tackle the off-road trails around here with ease; the fit-and-finish is excellent, and it’s been totally trouble-free so far. I am tickled happy with it.

However, I find something’s fundamentally changed with the advent of JL. Perhaps the new prices make JLs too “precious.” Or JL is attracting a greater number of first-time buyers who don’t know the Wrangler “code” yet. Or FCA has gone overboard and turned Wrangler into a status symbol. Whatever the reason, I find it is now common to be looked down upon for not driving the “right” type of Wrangler. I now feel I have to justify why I drive a Sahara, something I never had to before. Some may not realize this, but Sahara owners regularly get accused of being poor drivers, bad off-roaders, mall crawlers, even poseurs, all because we drive a Sahara. Ironically, half the time we get lectured by Rubicon owners who never even take their Jeeps off-road. I try not to be oversensitive to it, but it is just weird.

Do Sport owners get this too?

One of the nice things of being part of the Jeep community was the feeling of close camaraderie, no matter what Wrangler you drove. I never felt I had to justify why I drove a Sahara, or whatever. A Wrangler was a Wrangler and that was that.

Feel free to reply, agree, disagree, joke, flame, share your hypothesis, but please let’s keep it civil.

i think the JLs have brought on gentrification. I owned a 2018 Sport and now a fully loaded 2020 JLUR. It’s a little embarrassing just how different they are. Small example but the dome lights in the Sport were awful and Rubicon are very bright. Why would there be such a difference in quality on such a basic, little thing when they are both Wranglers? I think it lets the prices go higher and higher on the top of the line. So now the guy who just discovered Jeeps gets a $70,000 Rubicon and is master of the universe. He has no comprehension or understanding of the guy who buys the Sport with no A/C and crank windows but puts on $20,000 of aftermarket.

I think this only get worse with Jeep having to compete with the Bronco and Land Rover Defender. How else do you keep fighting with competitors without a continual race to the top leaving a bigger gap to the bottom?

 

[TaiMc]

...I said no such thing about YOU punching anyone...I said your comment was advocatingthat mindset should the aggressor feel warranted or slighted by mere words....

Hi Sean! Hope you are well. I’mma just chime in on this for a little bit.

I think that from your perspective you felt that Mr. Ted was advocating for violence due to unfavorable words being spoken. However, from my perspective I don’t believe this is correct, at least from my experiences.

I believe Mr. Ted simply stated that if you say something, be ready to be punched in the face, depending what you say or who you say it to.

That’s not advocating any type of behavior; it’s a statement of the possibility of something occurring. Essentially, the cause and effect factor.

Where I live, what he said is fact. There are places that you must mind what you say (if you do not want to be harmed), as the result will be a bullet, not a fist to that face.

By me saying that, I’m not advocating for violence. I’m stating fact.

Hope I did not misconstrue any of your statements with my post!

 

[TaiMc]

i think the JLs have brought on gentrification. I owned a 2018 Sport and now a fully loaded 2020 JLUR. It’s a little embarrassing just how different they are. Small example but the dome lights in the Sport were awful and Rubicon are very bright. Why would there be such a difference in quality on such a basic, little thing when they are both Wranglers? I think it lets the prices go higher and higher on the top of the line. So now the guy who just discovered Jeeps gets a $70,000 Rubicon and is master of the universe. He has no comprehension or understanding of the guy who buys the Sport with no A/C and crank windows but puts on $20,000 of aftermarket.

I think this only get worse with Jeep having to compete with the Bronco and Land Rover Defender. How else do you keep fighting with competitors without a continual race to the top leaving a bigger gap to the bottom?

gasp! How much brighter are the dome lights? My ‘18 JLU Base Sport inside lights are pretty bright!
I’m curious about this “brightness”! Do you have any pics of it?

sorry, I can be a bit “extra” when I’m excited about things lol

 

[entropy]

i think the JLs have brought on gentrification. I owned a 2018 Sport and now a fully loaded 2020 JLUR. It’s a little embarrassing just how different they are. Small example but the dome lights in the Sport were awful and Rubicon are very bright. Why would there be such a difference in quality on such a basic, little thing when they are both Wranglers? I think it lets the prices go higher and higher on the top of the line. So now the guy who just discovered Jeeps gets a $70,000 Rubicon and is master of the universe. He has no comprehension or understanding of the guy who buys the Sport with no A/C and crank windows but puts on $20,000 of aftermarket.

I think this only get worse with Jeep having to compete with the Bronco and Land Rover Defender. How else do you keep fighting with competitors without a continual race to the top leaving a bigger gap to the bottom?

The lights in the sport S and rubicon are the same part. maybe they improved from the 2018 model. A loaded sport S has about the same interior as a loaded rubicon.... rubicon is mostly about lockers, electronic sway bar, dana 44 front and rear, transfer case, 33in tires, gears. Thats what you are paying for.

I think a lot of people buy the rubicon thinking the lights are always brighter on the other side.

 

[TMP]

I am not talking about people living in 1,000,000 homes. I am talking people living in cheap apartments.

and I disagree. 1,000,000 might buy you a relatively small house in the "upscale" neighborhoods of LA. But these houses are remodeled and have uniqueness/value attached to them, and are not homedepot drywall boxes. Plus being well located in a major city is always gonna increase price, just like NYC, London, Tokyo, etc... On the outskirts of LA 1,000,000 can buy you a large new house still. But yeah, still overpriced compared to the rest of the country.

It’s a totally different housing market in Vancouver, Canada:
$1M USD is about $1.35 CDN which will get you detached house that is either a complete tear down or $100-200K in renovations.

 

[G.D.S. 4x4]

I'm late to this party. I get it the other way. You've got scratches on that pretty Rubicon! they say. My response is I don't ride a dirt bike to the mall ! Do what you want and give the rest 20% of the Jeep Wave.

 

[Aljeeper]

I just find this thread funny because TJ & YJ owners were always super salty towards JK and its fancy ass OEM air conditioning and superior safety ratings.

There will always be animosity between different Wrangler groups, everyone wants there own little cliquey group and when it becomes too accessible to more people, they just divide into another clique over something more frivolous.

I welcome people to express their snobbery right away so I know who not to invest any energy in early on.

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