Sponsored

Jeep/Bronco Articulation Comparo

Zandcwhite

Well-Known Member
First Name
Zach
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Threads
10
Messages
3,189
Reaction score
5,734
Location
Patterson, ca
Vehicle(s)
2019 jlur
When you change one item on the suspension all the specs will have new measurements. Sure the budget can do it’s it’s best to put back into almost oem alignment. A good lift will have 500k miles of on/off road R&D and will need over a year of testing.

Roll Center - Both front and rear suspensions have a Roll Center. This is an imaginary point around which the body of the car will rotate in a turn. The attachment points of the suspension components determine the Roll Center.
Roll Axis - A line between the front & rear Roll Centers.
CG (Center of Gravity) - The center point of the vehicle's mass.
Understeer - When the front tires lose traction first.
Oversteer - When the rear tires lose traction first.
Neutral Steer - The ideal balance when the front & rear tires gradually give up traction at an equal rate.
Spring Rate - Expressed in pounds per inch, it is the force necessary to compress the spring, i.e. a 200 lb spring requires 200 lbs to compress it 1 inch, 400 lbs to compress it 2 inches, etc.
Motion Ratio - Specifically we usually refer to the relationship between the motion of the wheel and the motion of the spring; i.e. If the spring is half the distance from the control arm pivot as the wheel is, the motion ratio relative to the wheel is .5 to 1.
Wheel Rate - The combined effect of spring rate, motion ratio, friction and/or binding of other suspension components measured at the wheel
Roll Bind - Any binding of suspension components that occurs as the body of the car leans over in a turn
Roll Steer - Generally refers to a steering effect on the rear axle as the car leans over in a corner. Caused by the rear control arms pivoting around their forward mounting point, drawing the axle forward as the arm moves up or down.
Bumpsteer - Toe change as the suspension moves up & down
Ackerman - Or in other words Toe out in turns. When turning the inside tire must turn more than the outer tire because it is turning on a smaller radius
Camber - Expressed in degrees, it is how much the tire leans in or out
Caster - The forward inclination of the spindle or strut - like the forks on a bicycle
Toe - The difference in the distance between the leading and trailing edge

Testing and making sure the geometry for all the above is on point takes time.

The Bronco is cheaper than the Jeep when comparing MSRP, mine is about $2k less. I had no issues with how my 12 Rubicon drove on road.

No doubt!
We are kidding ourselves if we think any kit, or even the oem suspension was perfectly engineered. Almost none of the kits from budget spacer to $4k+ system address the roll center in the front as changing the track bar angle requires changing the drag link angle to match. A lot of the kits raise the rear track bar mount to help with the roll center. The bracket to do the same can be had for as little as $50 from various sources. Adjustable control arms will do very little to address any geometry other than caster angle. Toe won’t change regardless of lift, as the tie rod isn’t effected (not to mention the oem is adjustable). A perfect example of the fallacy of oem engineering, all models run the same suspension components aside from springs. A sport sits ~2-2.5” lower than an XR and yet they run the same control arms? Obviously better shocks are an improvement, but a budget boost with shock extensions is no worse than stock. If you want to go 3+” you’ll need to do a lot more toward suspension geometry, but a budget boost is no different performance wise than a stock XR in my opinion. If we are pretending stock was some gold standard of engineering, it fits the bill(and is easily improved upon). We started out with a budget boost and have since made multiple changes, some for driveability, some for off road performance, some for durability, and some for all of the above. We are now at ~4” of lift, front drive shaft is replaced for improved down travel. Rock sport shocks, budget friendly long travel. Synergy drag link flip and track bar relocation bracket for improved droop, better roll center, and improved steering angle. Rubicon express adjustable LCA’s up front for better caster, more flex, and added strength. Rear track bar frame side drop bracket for better roll center and more down travel. With the new springs and all the other upgrades we are at ~$2k in to the suspension, but the front drive shaft and steering correction doesn’t come with even the most expensive kits out there. Jeep drives, handles, and performs well. Off the shelf kits are built to be “good enough” and leave plenty of room for improvement just like the oem in my experience. Of course your expensive kit will have better control arms and joints than my still stock front uppers and rear upper and lowers, but that does nothing for the geometry.





 

Richtor

Well-Known Member
First Name
Michael
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Threads
4
Messages
462
Reaction score
293
Location
Sonoma
Vehicle(s)
Fiesta ST
We are kidding ourselves if we think any kit, or even the oem suspension was perfectly engineered. Almost none of the kits from budget spacer to $4k+ system address the roll center in the front as changing the track bar angle requires changing the drag link angle to match. A lot of the kits raise the rear track bar mount to help with the roll center. The bracket to do the same can be had for as little as $50 from various sources. Adjustable control arms will do very little to address any geometry other than caster angle. Toe won’t change regardless of lift, as the tie rod isn’t effected (not to mention the oem is adjustable). A perfect example of the fallacy of oem engineering, all models run the same suspension components aside from springs. A sport sits ~2-2.5” lower than an XR and yet they run the same control arms? Obviously better shocks are an improvement, but a budget boost with shock extensions is no worse than stock. If you want to go 3+” you’ll need to do a lot more toward suspension geometry, but a budget boost is no different performance wise than a stock XR in my opinion. If we are pretending stock was some gold standard of engineering, it fits the bill(and is easily improved upon). We started out with a budget boost and have since made multiple changes, some for driveability, some for off road performance, some for durability, and some for all of the above. We are now at ~4” of lift, front drive shaft is replaced for improved down travel. Rock sport shocks, budget friendly long travel. Synergy drag link flip and track bar relocation bracket for improved droop, better roll center, and improved steering angle. Rubicon express adjustable LCA’s up front for better caster, more flex, and added strength. Rear track bar frame side drop bracket for better roll center and more down travel. With the new springs and all the other upgrades we are at ~$2k in to the suspension, but the front drive shaft and steering correction doesn’t come with even the most expensive kits out there. Jeep drives, handles, and performs well. Off the shelf kits are built to be “good enough” and leave plenty of room for improvement just like the oem in my experience. Of course your expensive kit will have better control arms and joints than my still stock front uppers and rear upper and lowers, but that does nothing for the geometry.
1. Oem engineering for levels and suspension geometry is still tested the hundred of thousands of hours of on and off road use, go through multiple even 100 plus different variations as they are tested for 5/6 years for one reason liability. Oem does not want warranty issues or lawsuits and engineer to protect themselves on both fronts. Something that budget or even high end lifts aftermarket do not need to deal with.

2. I could care less about lift. When seeking suspension modifications I seek more wheel/travel first and ground clearance second. Seeking to maximize both with as little lift as possible would be my goal.
My friends Raptor is below:
0D45B716-8CFB-43A7-A56C-2C77F3F2EE9B.jpeg
C62C102A-9DC7-4CB0-95A8-1E298292CE77.jpeg
01BFEE01-AC53-4AF6-AE3F-4711561F226B.jpeg
 

Zandcwhite

Well-Known Member
First Name
Zach
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Threads
10
Messages
3,189
Reaction score
5,734
Location
Patterson, ca
Vehicle(s)
2019 jlur
1. Oem engineering for levels and suspension geometry is still tested the hundred of thousands of hours of on and off road use, go through multiple even 100 plus different variations as they are tested for 5/6 years for one reason liability. Oem does not want warranty issues or lawsuits and engineer to protect themselves on both fronts. Something that budget or even high end lifts aftermarket do not need to deal with.

2. I could care less about lift. When seeking suspension modifications I seek more wheel/travel first and ground clearance second. Seeking to maximize both with as little lift as possible would be my goal.
My friends Raptor is below:
0D45B716-8CFB-43A7-A56C-2C77F3F2EE9B.jpeg
C62C102A-9DC7-4CB0-95A8-1E298292CE77.jpeg
01BFEE01-AC53-4AF6-AE3F-4711561F226B.jpeg
Not sure how you maximize ground clearance without lift, unless you run 40’s at stock height and break out the sawzall. The long travel, wide suspension kits are amazing in the desert, but making an already super wide truck even wider would be a detriment on a lot of trails, and would make some literally impossible. Low center of gravity builds are nothing new, but most if not all had limited uptravel to achieve that. Definitely not good for any kind of high speed application. It’s all a balance and comes with trade offs for sure. There is no one size fits all. Obviously the 6” plus lifts are going to bring way more draw backs than gains, and don’t even get me started on that bronco on 40’s with a body lift. Talk about form over function. At least the steering fails long before he can get into any situation tough enough to roll that bloated thing. I look for a balance of clearance, suspension travel, balance, and handling when planning my mods (obviously while keeping the budget reasonable). There will always be a list of mods I’d like to make, but I am very happy with our current set up from the rocks to the desert to the street. No matter how much testing the manufacturers do, you will be a better judge of your vehicle, on the terrain you drive it, with your driving style. Find the deficiencies, improve via mods, rinse and repeat. All the more reason not to go from oem to high end kit out the gate, it’s much harder to admit those deficiencies and spend the time and money improving them when you went full bore out the gate.
 

Richtor

Well-Known Member
First Name
Michael
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Threads
4
Messages
462
Reaction score
293
Location
Sonoma
Vehicle(s)
Fiesta ST
Not sure how you maximize ground clearance without lift, unless you run 40’s at stock height and break out the sawzall. The long travel, wide suspension kits are amazing in the desert, but making an already super wide truck even wider would be a detriment on a lot of trails, and would make some literally impossible. Low center of gravity builds are nothing new, but most if not all had limited uptravel to achieve that. Definitely not good for any kind of high speed application. It’s all a balance and comes with trade offs for sure. There is no one size fits all. Obviously the 6” plus lifts are going to bring way more draw backs than gains, and don’t even get me started on that bronco on 40’s with a body lift. Talk about form over function. At least the steering fails long before he can get into any situation tough enough to roll that bloated thing. I look for a balance of clearance, suspension travel, balance, and handling when planning my mods (obviously while keeping the budget reasonable). There will always be a list of mods I’d like to make, but I am very happy with our current set up from the rocks to the desert to the street. No matter how much testing the manufacturers do, you will be a better judge of your vehicle, on the terrain you drive it, with your driving style. Find the deficiencies, improve via mods, rinse and repeat. All the more reason not to go from oem to high end kit out the gate, it’s much harder to admit those deficiencies and spend the time and money improving them when you went full bore out the gate.
I would like my Bronco to have a stance and travel similar to the Baja Bronco below.
D1187689-5EF0-429E-B7C8-29D4C3923FFA.jpeg
 

Zandcwhite

Well-Known Member
First Name
Zach
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Threads
10
Messages
3,189
Reaction score
5,734
Location
Patterson, ca
Vehicle(s)
2019 jlur
I would like my Bronco to have a stance and travel similar to the Baja Bronco below.
D1187689-5EF0-429E-B7C8-29D4C3923FFA.jpeg
I think we would all like 20" of front wheel travel. Your broncos frame won't let you get the A arm pivots that close together, so for that kind of travel you'll need to widen the stance 8-14". On the bright side you'll need the tires pushed out that far in order to clear 12" of uptravel so I guess that's a good thing? The super wide Bronco will be great in the desert, hope you have a trailer and pilot car as it will likely be too wide to drive there. Ultra4 cars are always the example ifs guys use, but you simply cannot fit the engine between the pivots let alone the frame. It would cost more to build a Bronco in to an ultra4 car than it would cost to build one from a pile of tube. Good luck and keep us posted on how the build goes.
 

Sponsored

entropy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Threads
83
Messages
4,248
Reaction score
7,247
Location
Foothills of the San Gabriels
Vehicle(s)
Jeep Wrangler Sport S JL 2-D
Build Thread
Link
Occupation
Professional dancer/male stripper
1. Oem engineering for levels and suspension geometry is still tested the hundred of thousands of hours of on and off road use, go through multiple even 100 plus different variations as they are tested for 5/6 years for one reason liability. Oem does not want warranty issues or lawsuits and engineer to protect themselves on both fronts. Something that budget or even high end lifts aftermarket do not need to deal with.

2. I could care less about lift. When seeking suspension modifications I seek more wheel/travel first and ground clearance second. Seeking to maximize both with as little lift as possible would be my goal.
My friends Raptor is below:
0D45B716-8CFB-43A7-A56C-2C77F3F2EE9B.jpeg
C62C102A-9DC7-4CB0-95A8-1E298292CE77.jpeg
01BFEE01-AC53-4AF6-AE3F-4711561F226B.jpeg
Just because something is called "budget" doesnt mean it is bad. Spacers are cheap to make, theyre not bad quality. I have a $400 "budget" front locker. The locker is very sturdy, well machined, high quality, made in the USA. But cheaper than a selectable.

Spacer lifts are enough for those who want a small lift and not trying to carry more weight than the stock springs can handle.
 
Last edited:

entropy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Threads
83
Messages
4,248
Reaction score
7,247
Location
Foothills of the San Gabriels
Vehicle(s)
Jeep Wrangler Sport S JL 2-D
Build Thread
Link
Occupation
Professional dancer/male stripper
I would like my Bronco to have a stance and travel similar to the Baja Bronco below.
D1187689-5EF0-429E-B7C8-29D4C3923FFA.jpeg
Then what are you doing in the jl forums mad max? We clearly do different things here.
 

Richtor

Well-Known Member
First Name
Michael
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Threads
4
Messages
462
Reaction score
293
Location
Sonoma
Vehicle(s)
Fiesta ST

Richtor

Well-Known Member
First Name
Michael
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Threads
4
Messages
462
Reaction score
293
Location
Sonoma
Vehicle(s)
Fiesta ST
I dont know what this means? I dont get it. Do you want a Jeep or a Bronco? now I am confused. Theyre vastly different vehicles.
They are the same vehicle just slightly different look. 4 wheel drive rock crawler the tops and doors come off easy!
 

Sponsored

entropy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Threads
83
Messages
4,248
Reaction score
7,247
Location
Foothills of the San Gabriels
Vehicle(s)
Jeep Wrangler Sport S JL 2-D
Build Thread
Link
Occupation
Professional dancer/male stripper
They are the same vehicle just slightly different look. 4 wheel drive rock crawler the tops and doors come off easy!
de·lu·sion
/dəˈlo͞oZHən/
Learn to pronounce

noun
  1. an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.
    "the delusion of thinking a Bronco is a Jeep"

img_20211211_101233694_hdr-jpg.jpg
 
Last edited:

Roky

Well-Known Member
First Name
Roky
Joined
Oct 4, 2018
Threads
45
Messages
7,660
Reaction score
20,909
Location
Central Florida
Vehicle(s)
2018 JLUR
Build Thread
Link
Vehicle Showcase
1
:facepalm:
 

Mikester86

Banned
Banned
Banned
First Name
Mike
Joined
Mar 5, 2020
Threads
59
Messages
2,056
Reaction score
5,105
Location
Michigan wishing I was on a trail...
Vehicle(s)
2022 JLR
To be fair to the Bronco:
The StingGrey Wrangler without the grumper is a JLUR on 35s with 2.5” teraflex st2 lift. The sway bar is disconnected. Lockers are on.

(Source: It’s mine and I was driving)

I'm not sure if those Broncos had lockers or sway bar disconnect.

Alternate angle of just my run.
Not seeing where lockers were needed here. Unless the video is making the terrain look easier to traverse than it was.
 

entropy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Threads
83
Messages
4,248
Reaction score
7,247
Location
Foothills of the San Gabriels
Vehicle(s)
Jeep Wrangler Sport S JL 2-D
Build Thread
Link
Occupation
Professional dancer/male stripper
Not seeing where lockers were needed here. Unless the video is making the terrain look easier to traverse than it was.
When the Bronco lifts a tire, a locker would definitely help. Also, under articulation lockers help too due to the contact patch of the tire. But not sure how much this would affect the Bronco.

But as you said, that trail can be done without lockers without much trouble. Traction control should sufficiently make up for loss of traction.
 

oceanblue2019

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Apr 13, 2019
Threads
18
Messages
3,097
Reaction score
4,714
Location
Maryland
Vehicle(s)
2019 JLUR 2.0L Auto
Occupation
Metrology
There's that condescending attitude that I've come to expect from you. Money =/= quality. I bought a budget boost when I could have gotten a full kit because my JL in stock form had already impressed me. So I wanted to see what it actually needs vs what I want. The Daystar 2"spacer lift came with a quality set of poly spacers, longer front lower control arms to correct caster, and shock extensions. I've modified it a bit. I no longer use the shock extensions, and in their place I have 2.5" Fox shocks from the Mopar kit, again found on Craigslist for 300 bucks. And I trimmed the fenders with the AAL kit so I have quite a bit of room for the tires now. The wheels are KMC Machete beadlocks. The only component that is of a slightly lower quality is the Milestar Patagonias that I bought used and will be replacing in a few months.
20211011_095527.jpg

Working on it a little bit at a time when I find something that is a good deal and is truly needed.

Show me how your Bronco looks?

Oh that's right, you've been here for well over a year and don't even have a Bronco yet. My bad
Nice post.

There is a difference between cheap dangerous shit and someone making educated purchases and snapping up some deals on used parts when they come up and slowly upgrading.

You are certainly the later and this is one of the cool things about the Jeep community.

My shocks came used from someone on this forum who is far more "hardcore" than I am when he moved onto coil-overs. Nothing wrong with that.

Also my old Rubi stuff went to a nice nurse in a Sahara who I see around town on occasion who is still thrilled with what she got for a couple pizzas and case of beer and a Saturday learning how to work on a Jeep via the local Jeep club. She tells me she still is doing her own oil changes.

We also have the high end folks who buy a new Jeep and immediately drop 15k into it which is fine as well - their prerogative.

Nothing wrong with Daystar. They are a customer of mine and I can tell you they spend significantly on metrology equipment used in quality-control than many of the "industry icons" that people cherish on here who do absolutely zero to properly QC the product that goes out the door.

Keep on enjoying your Jeep.
Sponsored

 

Sponsored

Farrish CDJR
 
Sponsored
Top