Failed Rocker Arm & Camshaft Replacement

[mwilk012]

I was wondering why you bought OEM stuff to replace it. That wouldn't normally make sense. Checked Rock Auto and they don't even have Melling or any of those guys' parts listed.

Just wait until you find out who makes the oem stuff…

Sponsored

 

[ctwombley]

These are for JK?......
10200A, 10202A, 10369A Camshaft Phaser Timing Chain Tools

I have a JL that Im starting to dig into

I know the passenger side tension release tool in that kit does not fit. Not sure about the drivers side. The cam gear wedges in that kit still worked for the passenger side, although I had to shave it down a bit.

 

[ctwombley]

Thanks for the write up.....Im starting into my 2020 3.6 JL. HOw do you know if the engine is a VVT or VVL? I bought the cheap cam phaser tools off amazon thinking they work for my engine. You recommend only one tool....is that because you did only one side? Thanks much!!

I only did passenger side. The wedge that goes between the cam gears from the cheap kit worked fine but I had to shave it down a bit to get it to fit. The tension release tool did not work. The tool I mentioned has an extra slot to fit over a bolt inside the timing cover that the Jk’s did not have. I’m not sure if the cheap tools work for the drivers side but I seem to remember reading somewhere that they do.

 

[ctwombley]

Thanks for the write up.....Im starting into my 2020 3.6 JL. HOw do you know if the engine is a VVT or VVL? I bought the cheap cam phaser tools off amazon thinking they work for my engine. You recommend only one tool....is that because you did only one side? Thanks much!!

I believe the Jk’s didn’t have VVL, the JL’s got equipped with the revamped 3.6L that has it. I think it also says it on the plastic shroud on top of the engine? Not sure though. I got that info from the 3.6L pentastar Wikipedia page so take it with a grain of salt

 

[ctwombley]

I have a 2020 JL 3.6, starting my DIY repair now. Replacing all 24 rockers and whatever cams are damaged.

I have a lot of oil collected on top of the valve covers - any ideas why?

Also, what else (money not a problem fortunately) should I change while in there? PCV valve, VVL solenoids etc??? How about an oil catch?

Great wrtite up by the way....awsome!!!

On top of both valve covers? Only thing I could think of would be bad gaskets in some of the sensors. You have to take all the sensors out anyway to get the valve cover off so I’d just inspect and replace if necessary. If you buy a valance cover gasket kit usually they come with all the other gaskets anyway. The only other thing I could think of is maybe you doubled up the o-ring on the oil filter housing? That happened to me once but it didn’t spray onto the valve covers, just leaked some oil down on top of the intake manifold

 

[ctwombley]

I have a 2020 JL 3.6, starting my DIY repair now. Replacing all 24 rockers and whatever cams are damaged.

I have a lot of oil collected on top of the valve covers - any ideas why?

Also, what else (money not a problem fortunately) should I change while in there? PCV valve, VVL solenoids etc??? How about an oil catch?

Great wrtite up by the way....awsome!!!

Also just give the pcv a shake when you take it out. If it rattles you’re good.

 

[moto jeep]

Thanks much for replying to all my questions!!!.... I'm diving in this wknd!!

 

[bllprk]

1. Did you just let the coolant drain out when you removed the heater hoses? Or did you pre-drain the coolant?
2. Were you able to inspect the cams / rockers / lifters without removing the cam shaft? As in reach down and wiggle them? I suspect you can see the cam damage pretty easy?
3. What direction do you rotate the crank shaft to position the cams?

I have for sure (I think) and bad cam phaser / oil control valve. That is my priority but I also hear some ticking. I am going to open it up to replace the phaser but I will look for cam damage as we..

Thank you

 

[moto jeep]

1. Did you just let the coolant drain out when you removed the heater hoses? Or did you pre-drain the coolant?
2. Were you able to inspect the cams / rockers / lifters without removing the cam shaft? As in reach down and wiggle them? I suspect you can see the cam damage pretty easy?
3. What direction do you rotate the crank shaft to position the cams?

I have for sure (I think) and bad cam phaser / oil control valve. That is my priority but I also hear some ticking. I am going to open it up to replace the phaser but I will look for cam damage as we..

Thank you

I didn't drain the coolant. There ate 4 pipes connected to 4 hoses that route over the right side connected with house clamps.........I disconnected each one with a pliers a and catch leaking coolant with a towel..... once all 4 are disconnected I use bunny cords to hold them back and in a vertical position.

You can inspect the cam without removing.... but not the lifters or rocker arms. I replace only one cam (right intake) but I replace all 25 lifters/rockers. I did not remove the 3 cams that were not damaged....I just loosened the cam holding bolts, loosened cam chain with the wedges.....and this gives just enough room to remove/replace all the lifters/ rockers.

It doesn't matter what way you rotate the cam.... but taking the spark plugs out makes rotating much easier. Rotate at the crank.

I don't know your symptoms.... but it is very rare for the phasers and especially oil control valve to fail. The phaser and oil control valve are very simple devices that shouldn't fail..... if the phaser fails it would be electronic failure that would give a specific code.

You probably have failed lifters/ rockers which in turn ruin a cam(s)

 

[bllprk]

Thank you for the reply! I take your comments to heart. You could be right.

I have a long history trying to address a poor running engine. You can find a lot of it here:

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...-rough-idle-stalling-rich-fuel-3-6-mt.121106/

Why do I think its the phasers:
1. P000A - bank 1 camshaft 1 position slow response (I get this error under heavy engine load)
2. When I 'clean' the phaser's with jscan, bank 1 cam 1 does not act or sound like the other three cams. Its not clicking like the others, and also almost stalls the engine, unlike the others. This clean function rapidly presses the oil control valve.
3. I had an incident where the oil control valve jammed shut (see history link above)
4. Rough idle and low torque at mid-rpms
5. J-Scan shows more cam / crank error on this specific cam. The range was -52 to 60 for cam 1 but only -11 to 9 on cam 2. (it should be closer to zero)

All I really know is something is wrong with this engine and I need to open it up and look! Thank you so much for the help.

 

[bllprk]

Well…

all 6…. 80,000 miles…

 

[mwilk012]

Well…

all 6…. 80,000 miles…

Pretty clearly an oil supply problem with that cam.

 

[Yawnie'sPapa]

Pretty clearly an oil supply problem with that cam.

Diagnosed from those pictures?

And yet many have replaced cams and followers that looked exactly like that and had the new parts last just fine - without any oiling changes.
A poorly treated cam can do this just as easily (meaning the heat treatment and hardening)
I've seen a whole lot of failed cams over the years that weren't oil supply problems, including 3.6 cams. The proof was the fact that the owner (or dealer) simply replaced the cam and followers and changed the oil and filter and moved on - no further issues.
2020 model year saw a pretty large number of failures exactly like this (almost always odd bank intake), then the numbers dwindled in later model years, it's not nearly as common for the 2022 and later model years.
I have pictures of failures exactly like that - which happened in the 2020 model year engines - where the cams and followers were replaced and they had no further issues. Sounds more like a cam lobe treatment issue, or follower issue, since nothing was changed in the oiling, unless you could the follower which has the holes which spray the followers on both cams of that bank.

 

[mwilk012]

Diagnosed from those pictures?

And yet many have replaced cams and followers that looked exactly like that and had the new parts last just fine - without any oiling changes.
A poorly treated cam can do this just as easily (meaning the heat treatment and hardening)
I've seen a whole lot of failed cams over the years that weren't oil supply problems, including 3.6 cams. The proof was the fact that the owner (or dealer) simply replaced the cam and followers and changed the oil and filter and moved on - no further issues.
2020 model year saw a pretty large number of failures exactly like this (almost always odd bank intake), then the numbers dwindled in later model years, it's not nearly as common for the 2022 and later model years.
I have pictures of failures exactly like that - which happened in the 2020 model year engines - where the cams and followers were replaced and they had no further issues. Sounds more like a cam lobe treatment issue, or follower issue, since nothing was changed in the oiling, unless you could the follower which has the holes which spray the followers on both cams of that bank.

I could buy the explanation of a defective cam, if it were not the 6 failed rocker arm roller bearings that have no relation to the camshaft manufacturing. I would still be checking oil flow in that cylinder head before closing it up.

 

[58Willys]

I could buy the explanation of a defective cam, if it were not the 6 failed rocker arm roller bearings that have no relation to the camshaft manufacturing. I would still be checking oil flow in that cylinder head before closing it up.

How would you check oil flow, run engine with valve cover off and observe, or other method?

I agree the cause on these failures are the intake valve high lift follower bearings failing and causing the follower and rocker to shift out of position, wearing the cam. I would be curious to see hardness test results on the cam though.

I wonder if these failures are exaggerated by drivers running at higher RPM’s a lot, where high lift mode kicks in. Or even a failure to kick back into low lift mode in a timely manner. POS design all the way around.

Sponsored