Death Wobble - Please Help

[Silverblkrilla]

Tires or Ball joints usually.
Tires may look normal but jeeps are tire sensitive. I bet with new tires it goes away especially if you have 44k on the old ones.

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[Upnarms]

In my case I have the MC track bar that came with the lift, installed in November. My tires are Cooper STT Pros 315x70 17 with 44k miles on them. They have worn evenly and have decent tread left on them. I will be replacing them in the next few weeks. Going to 37x12.5x17. Perhaps the tires are contributing to the issue, but not the only issue. Will do ball joints first, then tires.

Obviously none of us know for sure, but with 44k miles, even if they appear fine, id definitely say tires are A culprit. Are your ball joints bad/ loose? Have you checked them or are you just throwing money at a guess?

In my personal experience with DW in a TJ, JKU, and JLUR over the last couple decades of jeep ownership, i have found the tires to be overlooked big time. They can be the spark that ignites the blaze. The track bar is the usual suspect in the chain. Gotta get the hardest bushing and bolts with no slop. My TJ was solved with different tires and a synergy trackbar bushing with a larger diameter bolt. The JL was solved with a SS trackbar with pro bushing and new tires. I still had a little shimmy until i upgraded the drag link, tie rod, and thru shaft stabilizer. A thrushaft stabilizer stiffened up the steering and got rid of the right pull many standard stabilizers cause. 30k miles later, no issues, not even a hint.

I know every jeep is different, just pointing out what i found were the causes for my setup. I run falken wildpeak at3 and at4s now on all my jeeps and a truck. Best tires I've ever had. Yoko geos were good too. Maybe these have stiffer sidewalls than bfgs. Ran goodyear, bfgs in the past with poor results. Over 30k miles on my falkens and they balance and wear great.

Wish you luck, if you are getting tires, go for LT sizes and dont fear load d or e. I run E rated on my JL in the size you have now and they aren't harsh at all.

 

[mtbjeep]

Tires or Ball joints usually.
Tires may look normal but jeeps are tire sensitive. I bet with new tires it goes away especially if you have 44k on the old ones.

Agreed. I developed really bad death wobble after the installation a MC True Dual Rate lift, steering components and 35" Maxxis tires last year. Most of last year was spent troubleshooting the front end, all of the front end, over and over again with no luck. My shop finally suggested swapping out the tires; this 100% eliminated the death wobble. Bear in mind these were brand new tires and they drove and balanced fine (with the obvious exception of the ferocious wobble they were causing

 

[Themistocles]

Agreed. I developed really bad death wobble after the installation a MC True Dual Rate lift, steering components and 35" Maxxis tires last year. Most of last year was spent troubleshooting the front end, all of the front end, over and over again with no luck. My shop finally suggested swapping out the tires; this 100% eliminated the death wobble. Bear in mind these were brand new tires and they drove and balanced fine (with the obvious exception of the ferocious wobble they were causing

I had a very experienced mechanic with time on some desert race teams explain to me (while I was chasing my Ram 2500 DW) that sidewall stiffness is critical and that a tire with sidewalls that are not stiff enough for the weight / set-up of your vehicle will frequently lead to DW...especially if some other components are worn. I have no scientific validation of that. But I did go from soft side walled BFGs to load range E Toyos and my DW never returned...

 

[Upnarms]

I had a very experienced mechanic with time on some desert race teams explain to me (while I was chasing my Ram 2500 DW) that sidewall stiffness is critical and that a tire with sidewalls that are not stiff enough for the weight / set-up of your vehicle will frequently lead to DW...especially if some other components are worn. I have no scientific validation of that. But I did go from soft side walled BFGs to load range E Toyos and my DW never returned...

This^^^

100 percent my experience. A bump in the road at speed, soft sidewalls, undersized trackbar and other steering components and the chain reaction leads to your dw. Try to eliminate the sparks and beef up the weak components.

I went to the 2.5 ton steering setup Apex/rpm and there are other companies with them now just fit added insurance.

Still sucks you have to spend $$$to get steering the way it should come from the factory.

 

[AVGeek99]

Obviously none of us know for sure, but with 44k miles, even if they appear fine, id definitely say tires are A culprit. Are your ball joints bad/ loose? Have you checked them or are you just throwing money at a guess?

In my personal experience with DW in a TJ, JKU, and JLUR over the last couple decades of jeep ownership, i have found the tires to be overlooked big time. They can be the spark that ignites the blaze. The track bar is the usual suspect in the chain. Gotta get the hardest bushing and bolts with no slop. My TJ was solved with different tires and a synergy trackbar bushing with a larger diameter bolt. The JL was solved with a SS trackbar with pro bushing and new tires. I still had a little shimmy until i upgraded the drag link, tie rod, and thru shaft stabilizer. A thrushaft stabilizer stiffened up the steering and got rid of the right pull many standard stabilizers cause. 30k miles later, no issues, not even a hint.

I know every jeep is different, just pointing out what i found were the causes for my setup. I run falken wildpeak at3 and at4s now on all my jeeps and a truck. Best tires I've ever had. Yoko geos were good too. Maybe these have stiffer sidewalls than bfgs. Ran goodyear, bfgs in the past with poor results. Over 30k miles on my falkens and they balance and wear great.

Wish you luck, if you are getting tires, go for LT sizes and dont fear load d or e. I run E rated on my JL in the size you have now and they aren't harsh at all.

My current tires are Cooper STT Pros 315x70 17 MT, load range E. On the stock suspension I never had a complaint as to how they rode. At 36+ psi, they were a bit harsh, but at or just under 30psi where I kept them inflated the ride was very comfortable. This is the 2nd set of STT Pros I've had, both sets never gave me trouble. My new tires will be 37x12.5 17 STT Pros, which are load range D. I'm not getting them becuase I want a smoother ride with load range tires. I'm getting them becuase STT Pros have served my well in the past. Load range D is very common in this size.

I kind of doubt my tires are the problem, or at least not the entire problem. But whether I think so or not it is more or less irrelevant. I'm getting new tires in a couple weeks.

Prior to the lift the tires, everything, were perfectly fine. Immediately after the lift the bump steer/shimmy started with occasional DW. If my issues had begun prior to the lift I may looked at new tires earlier. My current belief is that with the added height and higher COG, from the lift it puts more strain on the ball joints. Though they showed no signs of failing before the lift, the extra strain after exposed the weekness and sped up the deterioration. I have tested the ball joints and as far as I can tell they are fine. However, this seems to be rather common.

At this point, and considering I'm moving up to 37" tires in a couple weeks, few would upgrading the ball joints as throwing money at the problem. The stock ball joints are not designed to withstand a lift and 37" tires. Ball joints were always in my upgrade plan, I was just waiting until they failed before pulling the trigger. Maybe the ball joints wont be the fix, and the tires do fix it. I'll know soon enough. DT Ball Joints should be delivered Thursday or Friday and will install on Saturday.

This^^^

100 percent my experience. A bump in the road at speed, soft sidewalls, undersized trackbar and other steering components and the chain reaction leads to your dw. Try to eliminate the sparks and beef up the weak components.

I went to the 2.5 ton steering setup Apex/rpm and there are other companies with them now just fit added insurance.

Still sucks you have to spend $$$to get steering the way it should come from the factory.

I agree it does suck to have to spend a lot of money to get the steering that is needed to handle a lift and 37" tires. But then again, it also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to overbuild a stock Jeep with 33" tires. They are expensive enough as is.

When I ordered my Jeep I knew I'd eventually be getting it lifted with larger tires. I knew that this would require upgrading the steering components, and the ball joints. All of this was in my upgrade plan. For TR and DL I went with the SS XD 2.5 ton joints. DT ProSteer ball joints will be installed this weekend.

In all that I've done to try to correct my shimmy and DW, there are only two things outside of my upgrade plan that I would consider throwing money at the problem. Larger (9/16") track bar bolts ($16) and the SS Sector Shaft Brace ($275). Time will tell if the sector shaft brace was worth the money, but it did little to correct my DW, it has helped some with the shimmy.

I've not considered the track bar as the problem. If that ends up being the problem that will annoy the hell out of me. My track bar is a brand new (in Nov) MC track bar that came with the lift. Since my issues started immediately after the lift and I checked the torque on all bolts after a week, I don't think that is the problem. But again, time will tell. I don't want to throw any money at a new track bar until after I've got the ball joints and tires to complete my planned upgrades.

 

[Upnarms]

My current tires are Cooper STT Pros 315x70 17 MT, load range E. On the stock suspension I never had a complaint as to how they rode. At 36+ psi, they were a bit harsh, but at or just under 30psi where I kept them inflated the ride was very comfortable. This is the 2nd set of STT Pros I've had, both sets never gave me trouble. My new tires will be 37x12.5 17 STT Pros, which are load range D. I'm not getting them becuase I want a smoother ride with load range tires. I'm getting them becuase STT Pros have served my well in the past. Load range D is very common in this size.

I kind of doubt my tires are the problem, or at least not the entire problem. But whether I think so or not it is more or less irrelevant. I'm getting new tires in a couple weeks.

Prior to the lift the tires, everything, were perfectly fine. Immediately after the lift the bump steer/shimmy started with occasional DW. If my issues had begun prior to the lift I may looked at new tires earlier. My current belief is that with the added height and higher COG, from the lift it puts more strain on the ball joints. Though they showed no signs of failing before the lift, the extra strain after exposed the weekness and sped up the deterioration. I have tested the ball joints and as far as I can tell they are fine. However, this seems to be rather common.

At this point, and considering I'm moving up to 37" tires in a couple weeks, few would upgrading the ball joints as throwing money at the problem. The stock ball joints are not designed to withstand a lift and 37" tires. Ball joints were always in my upgrade plan, I was just waiting until they failed before pulling the trigger. Maybe the ball joints wont be the fix, and the tires do fix it. I'll know soon enough. DT Ball Joints should be delivered Thursday or Friday and will install on Saturday.



I agree it does suck to have to spend a lot of money to get the steering that is needed to handle a lift and 37" tires. But then again, it also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to overbuild a stock Jeep with 33" tires. They are expensive enough as is.

When I ordered my Jeep I knew I'd eventually be getting it lifted with larger tires. I knew that this would require upgrading the steering components, and the ball joints. All of this was in my upgrade plan. For TR and DL I went with the SS XD 2.5 ton joints. DT ProSteer ball joints will be installed this weekend.

In all that I've done to try to correct my shimmy and DW, there are only two things outside of my upgrade plan that I would consider throwing money at the problem. Larger (9/16") track bar bolts ($16) and the SS Sector Shaft Brace ($275). Time will tell if the sector shaft brace was worth the money, but it did little to correct my DW, it has helped some with the shimmy.

I've not considered the track bar as the problem. If that ends up being the problem that will annoy the hell out of me. My track bar is a brand new (in Nov) MC track bar that came with the lift. Since my issues started immediately after the lift and I checked the torque on all bolts after a week, I don't think that is the problem. But again, time will tell. I don't want to throw any money at a new track bar until after I've got the ball joints and tires to complete my planned upgrades.

Yes, so many variables, especially when you put on a lift and then the issues appear. True, going to 37s, can't go wrong with ball joints...i had glossed over that. I dint know enough about the MC trackbar to know if it's sufficient or not. When i lifted, i did the AEV dualsport which had geometry correction brackets to keep the original angles. I never had dw after the lift. All my dw was when stock and like i said it went away when i upgraded to the SS yeti tb. The shimmy took time to figure out.

The key will be making one adjustment at a time so you can try to identify the issue. When you swap out shocks, springs, tb, ss, dl, tr, at once (which is what we have to do generality) it creates quite the mess determining which change did it or was something present before that was now exposed with the changes. A pain for sure.

Keep everyone posted.

 

[AVGeek99]

I have left out the fact that I have changed out shocks since the lift. When I got the lift I told the shop I want to do some of the work myself. Partly becuase I wanted to be able to say I did some of the work. And partly becuase I wanted a really good set of shocks, and getting a lift and regearing to 4.88s at the same time isn't a small chunk of change.

I had swapped out shocks on my JK and it was simple enough so when I got the lift I had the shop put on an "affordable" set of shocks thinking they would be good enough until I had set aside enough to pay for the Fox 2.5 DSCs I wanted.

No need to name names, but this set of shocks is not one you hear about on this forum, good or bad. I had never heard of them, but they were $50 each and I was expecting them to be no worse than the stock shockes, which I never thought were bad. MISTAKE!!! Those shocks were so bad that I was a bit worried that a 3.5" lifft was too big and I would no longer have a decent ride. Those shocks made pebbles feel like large rocks. Between the terrible ride, the shimmy, and occasional DW I got to the point where I didn't enjoy driving my Jeep anymore.

I installed the Fox 2.5s in January and they put my mind at ease. The smooth ride is back. They however did nothing to fix the shimmy or DW, but I didn't really expect them to.

I got the UPS notification today. Ball Joints arrive on tomorrow. I will install on Saturday. Fingers crossed, they do the trick.

 

[Upnarms]

I have left out the fact that I have changed out shocks since the lift. When I got the lift I told the shop I want to do some of the work myself. Partly becuase I wanted to be able to say I did some of the work. And partly becuase I wanted a really good set of shocks, and getting a lift and regearing to 4.88s at the same time isn't a small chunk of change.

I had swapped out shocks on my JK and it was simple enough so when I got the lift I had the shop put on an "affordable" set of shocks thinking they would be good enough until I had set aside enough to pay for the Fox 2.5 DSCs I wanted.

No need to name names, but this set of shocks is not one you hear about on this forum, good or bad. I had never heard of them, but they were $50 each and I was expecting them to be no worse than the stock shockes, which I never thought were bad. MISTAKE!!! Those shocks were so bad that I was a bit worried that a 3.5" lifft was too big and I would no longer have a decent ride. Those shocks made pebbles feel like large rocks. Between the terrible ride, the shimmy, and occasional DW I got to the point where I didn't enjoy driving my Jeep anymore.

I installed the Fox 2.5s in January and they put my mind at ease. The smooth ride is back. They however did nothing to fix the shimmy or DW, but I didn't really expect them to.

I got the UPS notification today. Ball Joints arrive on tomorrow. I will install on Saturday. Fingers crossed, they do the trick.

Did you read through this thread?


https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/metal-cloak-3-5-and-death-wobble.57364/

I recalled more than one thread related to dw and mc lift. Looks like some solved it with ball joints (as well as replacing every other component)
I hope the ball joints do the trick!

 

[AVGeek99]

Did you read through this thread?


https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/metal-cloak-3-5-and-death-wobble.57364/

I recalled more than one thread related to dw and mc lift. Looks like some solved it with ball joints (as well as replacing every other component)
I hope the ball joints do the trick!

I'd not seen that thread, thanks for sharing!! I just read the entire thread. It got me very nervous at first seeing how many people have had experiences eerily similar to mine. Was relieved to see that ball joints did the trick for most, after replacing everything I've already replaced of course.

There was one post on page 2 that mentioned a steeper drag link angle with the lift. I noticed this when I was installing my drag link. The only way to remedy this is to swap out the Pitman Arm with one designed for specific lift heights. I know they sell these, but I don't know how many people actully get them, or if the angle of the drag link matters.

That is on my list of questions to ask about if my DW issues continue. But in that thread no one even acknowledged that comment, so it must not be that big a deal.

If the ball joints don't do the trick, I think the next place I'll look is the track bar. Though as I said in a previous post, that will annoy the hell out of me. The MC track bar has 4k miles on it and I've had constant shimmy and occasional DW the whole time. I do still have the stock track bar. I may just throw that in there to see what it does if the Ball Joints don't fix it.

 

[Upnarms]

I'd not seen that thread, thanks for sharing!! I just read the entire thread. It got me very nervous at first seeing how many people have had experiences eerily similar to mine. Was relieved to see that ball joints did the trick for most, after replacing everything I've already replaced of course.

There was one post on page 2 that mentioned a steeper drag link angle with the lift. I noticed this when I was installing my drag link. The only way to remedy this is to swap out the Pitman Arm with one designed for specific lift heights. I know they sell these, but I don't know how many people actully get them, or if the angle of the drag link matters.

That is on my list of questions to ask about if my DW issues continue. But in that thread no one even acknowledged that comment, so it must not be that big a deal.

If the ball joints don't do the trick, I think the next place I'll look is the track bar. Though as I said in a previous post, that will annoy the hell out of me. The MC track bar has 4k miles on it and I've had constant shimmy and occasional DW the whole time. I do still have the stock track bar. I may just throw that in there to see what it does if the Ball Joints don't fix it.

You might consider a through shaft stabilizer. Where as a SS doesn't usually "fix" dw, i have read posts where some SS have actuality helped create/induce it after install. When i added a teraflex falcon thru shaft ss, it really made my steering tight and a right pull of always had was finally gone. Definitely took away wander. I've heard good things about the fox thru shaft as well. I bought the non adjustable teraflex falcon one and absolutely love it.

I'm a big fan of steer smarts track bar and sector shaft brace, but i had heard mixed reviews on the ss. A thru shaft SS is a nice upgrade anyway so it won't be wasted $.

You are getting ball joints any way, so throw those on and pray, but think about the SS.

So many variables!

 

[AVGeek99]

I installed the DT ball joints today. I'm reluctant to declare victory over my shimmy/DW so soon. It has made me the fool at least a couple times in the past few months.

After completing the install I took it on a test drive. I drove all the way to work and back. There are several harsh bumps on that route that have regularly induced a very noticeable shimmy, occasionally devolving to DW. On my test drive today there were a couple spots that caused the slightest bit of shimmy. But it was so slight, I may not have thought anything about it if I wasn't so hyper aware of it after the past 5 months.

At a bare minimum, the stock ball joints were definitely shot and the new DTs are a huge improvement. I'll monitor over the next week and will report back. Hopefully it will be a victory march.

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