Botched winch install

[Zandcwhite]

forget all these winch setup arguments. Teach me how to “trail weld”. Seriously.

It's easy if you can stick weld. Connect the + of 1 battery to the negative of another. Use the - of the 1st battery as the ground, connecting 1 jumper cable from it to the metal you want to weld. Take the positive from the 2nd battery and use that jumper cable as your rod holder. Now strike an arc like any other welding rod and burn away. A pair of welding goggles and some rods don't take up much space. If you forgot the goggles you can stack 3-4 pairs of sunglasses but you'll see spots for a few days.

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[Ph97048]

Ok…. First, consider my mind blown. It makes perfect sense and I never would’ve thought of this. I’m definitely not a skilled welder, but I can join a couple pieces of metal together. This is something I’d be comfortable trying.

Second, how long would two high-cranking amp batteries last while welding? I have no concept of how much energy is used since I’ve only ever just plugged the welder in….

Time to start up the YouTube! Thanks for the info.

 

[CO2Wrangler]

Wire ampacities are rated for continous load. Pulling 500A for a short time through a 3/0 is possible and will not create enough heat to melt the insulation. Pulling 500A for a few seconds from your battery, even if you have to winch with the vehicle off (river cruising too deep, intake under water, winches out no problem), won't explode the battery or even discharge it enough to keep it from then starting the vehicle.

The problem with this statement is it assumes that a circuit breaker isn't ALSO capable of handling those amperages for a short time. A circuit breaker is going to have a trip time curve just like the wire does. If done correctly, a circuit breaker can allow for enough current to winch you out and still protect against the reason this thread was started in the first place.

As mentioned before, if you're maxing out your winch you would likely benefit from a pulley or a bigger winch anyway.

Everyone can choose for themselves how to wire their winch, but I'm not going to risk a vehicle fire.

People deserve to have access to differing opinions so they can decide which and how much risk they're comfortable with and I appreciate your take on it, even if I don't agree with it.

 

[Zandcwhite]

The problem with this statement is it assumes that a circuit breaker isn't ALSO capable of handling those amperages for a short time. A circuit breaker is going to have a trip time curve just like the wire does. If done correctly, a circuit breaker can allow for enough current to winch you out and still protect against the reason this thread was started in the first place.

As mentioned before, if you're maxing out your winch you would likely benefit from a pulley or a bigger winch anyway.

Everyone can choose for themselves how to wire their winch, but I'm not going to risk a vehicle fire.

People deserve to have access to differing opinions so they can decide which and how much risk they're comfortable with and I appreciate your take on it, even if I don't agree with it.

In a commercial application you can find adjustable trip delay breakers (for thousands of dollars). In a simple 12v breaker a breaker large enough to allow a few seconds of 400+A is basically pointless as it wouldn't to under a sustained 300A load that would lead to melting the winch wiring. Again, there's a reason no manufacturer recommends it. Site you can, but there's no benefit.

 

[8ball]

It's easy if you can stick weld. Connect the + of 1 battery to the negative of another. Use the - of the 1st battery as the ground, connecting 1 jumper cable from it to the metal you want to weld. Take the positive from the 2nd battery and use that jumper cable as your rod holder. Now strike an arc like any other welding rod and burn away. A pair of welding goggles and some rods don't take up much space. If you forgot the goggles you can stack 3-4 pairs of sunglasses but you'll see spots for a few days.

Give it a try what could go wrong….says the guy who thinks circuit breakers/fuse’s are useless…

 

[Zandcwhite]

Give it a try what could go wrong….says the guy who thinks circuit breakers/fuse’s are useless…

500A fuses/ circuit breakers on wire rated for ~150A continuous are useless. 150A fuses in wires that will see occasional 400A loads are useless. I guess because a few of you are scared you know more than the entire winch industry though?

 

[LAM]

Poor me, with a PHEV I have no idea how fast the HV is replenishing the 12V battery when I am sucking out oodles of amps for my winch or air compressor. For now until convinced otherwise I am using my human circuit breaker. If I throw the battery switch for the winch and I see smoke and fire I am going to shut it off. While winching I am likewise pushing a button and if I see any problem I am releasing the button. If I see smoke and fire at both ends of the Jeep I am going to run like the dickens. (I am thinking maybe if a thread exceeds twenty replies it should automatically be moved to “Jeep Humor.’)

 

[Blade1668]

forget all these winch setup arguments. Teach me how to “trail weld”. Seriously.

A side bar on "trail welding" with 2 batteries jumper cable and welding rods. Hook up 2-3 12v in series ground clamp, positive clamp holds welding rod or vs versa depending on what welding rods used. Welding protection for eyes. Simple DC stick welding. (A friend of mine always tells people about me welding up his utility trailer about 25 years ago in his driveway and it still holding up.) I normally have and use my Ready Welder spool gun though.

Now back to this wreck or thread topic.
I've used Warn’s solenoid disconnect kit on my XJ starting in 99. The original solenoid failed eventually and I replaced it. It was also used as my jump starting connection in front and rear of that Jeep. A few of the vehicles I have that have a winch are direct wired to battery. I've had winches to fail that used a breaker in the past and relays that failed. I have a disconnect on my JT but my Wrangler (TJ) is direct wired sort of Anderson connector. The newer the vehicle the more likely of wires being cut or damaged in a crumple zone.
Drifting of thread.
What do I recommend? You do what you think you should. Cut off, breaker, fuse or direct. Vehicle winches of the past in many cases was 1.5 (5000-9000 lbs) vehicle weight if that. Now it's regularly 2 times or more (10-13k) This is easier for the winch and vehicle system less amps draw needed. Many it seems forget that the winch loses on each wrap over the first. The "fix" to reduce the load is double line, frees up more line and lower amps draw. A winch is supposed to be used intermittently burst then cool off, many if not almost all of us haven't.
This one started with a likely incorrectly wired winch or a faulty winch. S### happens.

Years ago in college I bought a very used Audi. The fuel pump stopped working, turns out someone had re-wired the fuel pump using speaker wire!

A note on use of "incorrect" wire to run something I've used oxygen free copper speaker wire in past for lights. It was higher quality than regular wire that was avaliable in 1992 on my Comanche, the wiring is still good not the lights.

 

[Blade1668]

It's easy if you can stick weld. Connect the + of 1 battery to the negative of another. Use the - of the 1st battery as the ground, connecting 1 jumper cable from it to the metal you want to weld. Take the positive from the 2nd battery and use that jumper cable as your rod holder. Now strike an arc like any other welding rod and burn away. A pair of welding goggles and some rods don't take up much space. If you forgot the goggles you can stack 3-4 pairs of sunglasses but you'll see spots for a few days.

I have and kept heavy gauge wire with battery clamps with hood, gloves ect ect in my XJ for that. Besides running dual batteries. Fortunately I welded others stuff up more than mine. I bent or pretzeled more than broke then.... ahhh when big tires were 35 to 37 sized.

 

[CO2Wrangler]

Which circuit breaker do you use and/or recommend?

For cost and availability, I'd probably go with the ANL fuse holder and handful of fuses mentioned earlier. Choose the fuse based on the trip curve and your individual winch current draw.

 

[GATORB8]

Poor me, with a PHEV I have no idea how fast the HV is replenishing the 12V battery when I am sucking out oodles of amps for my winch or air compressor. For now until convinced otherwise I am using my human circuit breaker. If I throw the battery switch for the winch and I see smoke and fire I am going to shut it off. While winching I am likewise pushing a button and if I see any problem I am releasing the button. If I see smoke and fire at both ends of the Jeep I am going to run like the dickens. (I am thinking maybe if a thread exceeds twenty replies it should automatically be moved to “Jeep Humor.’)

I've seen 2,500 watts reported for the DC-DC charger, so 200 ish amps.

 

[CO2Wrangler]

My question was about circuit breaker recommendations because I'm interested in whether they've been successfully used for winches.

Check out the data sheet on this guy.

This in a 200 amp version should do just fine for most winches. It will have double the amperage for at least 10 seconds before cutting out. There aren't many situations where your winch is going to be drawing it's max for very long. If it is you likely should've been using a pulley. Worst case, you let it cool and reset it.

https://powerwerx.com/eaton-187f-waterproof-circuit-breaker-surface-mount

 

[Zandcwhite]

Check out the data sheet on this guy.

This in a 200 amp version should do just fine for most winches. It will have double the amperage for at least 10 seconds before cutting out. There aren't many situations where your winch is going to be drawing it's max for very long. If it is you likely should've been using a pulley. Worst case, you let it cool and reset it.

https://powerwerx.com/eaton-187f-waterproof-circuit-breaker-surface-mount

The problem I have with these type of breakers is the 1200A it will flow for several seconds. At that point you probably have the melted wires/fire potential that you're trying to mitigate with the breaker in the 1st place. That's been my point all along. Any breaker large enough to power a large winch reliably will flow the full CCA of the battery for several seconds which defeats the purpose of the breaker.

 

[THAW]

Check out the data sheet on this guy.

This in a 200 amp version should do just fine for most winches. It will have double the amperage for at least 10 seconds before cutting out. There aren't many situations where your winch is going to be drawing it's max for very long. If it is you likely should've been using a pulley. Worst case, you let it cool and reset it.

https://powerwerx.com/eaton-187f-waterproof-circuit-breaker-surface-mount

The max operating temp (185° F) seems like a potential deal breaker for the engine bay.

And there's still the issue of potentially overheating 120 A rated wire with 200 A continuous current.

 

[GATORB8]

The problem I have with these type of breakers is the 1200A it will flow for several seconds. At that point you probably have the melted wires/fire potential that you're trying to mitigate with the breaker in the 1st place. That's been my point all along. Any breaker large enough to power a large winch reliably will flow the full CCA of the battery for several seconds which defeats the purpose of the breaker.

Kind of interesting to see the trip curves side by side. This is Blue Sea terminal fuse vs ANL fuse vs 187 Breaker (same Bussman line)

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