6 Speed Manual performance difference?

[NavyVet1959]

Yes, preventing fraud is very swampy.

By the time I traded my XJ in, it was worth so little that I just told them to take the hydraulic winch off of it and give it to me and they could have the rest of the vehicle. No fraud there. It probably got sold at auction and towed down to Mexico. I see them headed that way quite often on US-59 -- one vehicle, towing another, possibly even towing another.

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[DanW]

These days, I suspect even *breathing* is a federal offense. Yeah, the swamp needs draining, but we need to drown everything in the swamp first...

I'd agree on the swamp, but a law covering deception intended to break a contract or agreement, in this case, a warranty, doesn't fall into that category. This has to do with morality and ethics and is actually something against the way the swamp actually behaves, which is to act as if the law, rules, morality, and ethics don't apply to them. It also protects the next buyer from fraud. In this case, we're better off with this law. To put it another way, The swamp creatures do things like this for their own gain, at the expense of others.

If one wants to extend the warranty, sleep well at night, and have self respect, then do four things. Buy an extended warranty, correct for tire size, enjoy the Jeep, and feel good for not screwing over the company (people) who created this wonderful machine for us, as well as whoever buys it next. Then, one should feel good when children look upon him or her and believe they see a good person who tries to live by the golden rule.

That's how we can each avoid becoming part of the swamp.

 

[NavyVet1959]

I'd agree on the swamp, but a law covering deception intended to break a contract or agreement, in this case, a warranty, doesn't fall into that category. This has to do with morality and ethics and is actually something against the way the swamp actually behaves, which is to act as if the law, rules, morality, and ethics don't apply to them. It also protects the next buyer from fraud. In this case, we're better off with this law. To put it another way, The swamp creatures do things like this for their own gain, at the expense of others.

If one wants to extend the warranty, sleep well at night, and have self respect, then do four things. Buy an extended warranty, correct for tire size, enjoy the Jeep, and feel good for not screwing over the company (people) who created this wonderful machine for us, as well as whoever buys it next. Then, one should feel good when children look upon him or her and believe they see a good person who tries to live by the golden rule.

That's how we can each avoid becoming part of the swamp.

The warranty was not an issue for me since I did not put the lift kit on there and the slightly larger tires until the original tires had worn out. I'm pretty sure the warranty was run out by that time anyway since I would not have done those types of modifications and still expected the factory warranty to apply.

I have to wonder if miles is really a good measure of the wear that has been put on a vehicle. For an engine, hours might be more appropriate, but only if it took into account RPMs and engine load. For a lot of equipment, oil change intervals are measured with a hours meter, but even then, it might not differentiate between hours idling vs hours at full power.

And I suspect that most people who put slightly larger tires on their vehicles do not bother getting their speedometers recalibrated to be accurate for those tires and it has nothing to do with attempting your claim that it is an attempt to defraud.

 

[NavyVet1959]

Back to the topic at hand though...

Car and Driver had a review of the Jeep JL and it stated that the 2-door manual transmission model gets 6.1 seconds on the 0-60 mph test and has a top speed of 113 mph.

https://www.caranddriver.com/jeep/wrangler

That's better than a recent Ram 1500 with the hemi at 7.0 seconds as reviewed by Car and Driver.

https://www.caranddriver.com/review...and-driving-impressions-car-and-driver-page-4

I have an older model with slightly less horsepower, thus probably slightly slower, but it has acceptable acceleration for my needs. I've also owned a few different sports cars and sports tourers over the years (and paid my fair share of speeding tickets). Most people do not use the full acceleration capabilities of their vehicles, so as long as I can accelerate faster than them if the need occurs and get up to 80 mph or so for merging onto the freeway over the length of the entrance ramp, it's good enough for me.

 

[DanW]

The warranty was not an issue for me since I did not put the lift kit on there and the slightly larger tires until the original tires had worn out. I'm pretty sure the warranty was run out by that time anyway since I would not have done those types of modifications and still expected the factory warranty to apply.

I have to wonder if miles is really a good measure of the wear that has been put on a vehicle. For an engine, hours might be more appropriate, but only if it took into account RPMs and engine load. For a lot of equipment, oil change intervals are measured with a hours meter, but even then, it might not differentiate between hours idling vs hours at full power.

And I suspect that most people who put slightly larger tires on their vehicles do not bother getting their speedometers recalibrated to be accurate for those tires and it has nothing to do with attempting your claim that it is an attempt to defraud.

Someone putting large tires on the Jeep and not bothering with changing the speedo is not necessarily a fraud attempt, and I never said or even implied it was. What I was responding to was your earlier post suggesting using a programmer to dial in the smallest tire size combined with large tires specifically with the intent of extending the warranty by fraud. THAT would be a criminal act.

 

[northernILJeep]

I’ve had two manual TJs and two manual JKs. I now have a manual JLUS. It is much a much smoother transition through the gears. Out of curiosity, when do people upshift? I tend to around 2500 RPM.

 

[NavyVet1959]

I’ve had two manual TJs and two manual JKs. I now have a manual JLUS. It is much a much smoother transition through the gears. Out of curiosity, when do people upshift? I tend to around 2500 RPM.

I don't have a JL yet, but as someone who has been driving manual transmissions in one type of vehicle or another for probably around 50 years, I can tell you my "technique" on shifting points.

If I'm going to maximum acceleration, I tend to shift at the maximum power point (or maybe slightly above it) on the horsepower (or torque) vs RPM chart. Ideally, you want the new gear to still be at the top of the power curve so that you can continue accelerating. Many American cars have their highest gears as an overdrive and as such, you drop so many RPMs that you won't be able to accelerate in top gear and their top speed is achieved in their next to highest gear. On the other hand, the Porsche that I owned had 5th gear (its highest) as just a linear extension of the 4th gear, so top speed was limited by redline in 5th gear (and wind resistance), not by power / torque.

This just glosses over the horsepower vs torque aspect. If you want more detained description of it, there's plenty of web pages out there for your further reading.

In practical day to day driving where I don't need to rapidly accelerate and am trying to conserve fuel, I tend to shift at a low RPM -- basically at a point where the resulting new RPMs are slightly higher than the idle RPMs of the vehicle. You don't want the RPMs to be so low that you are "lugging" the vehicle around, so maybe a bit more than the idle RPM setting. You might want to make a list of the minimum RPMs for a given gear and the speed associated with it and put it on a post-it note on the dash until you are comfortable enough to do it by instinct / sound of the engine.

If you are driving around and might need a bit more acceleration, you might want to consider adding another 1000 or so RPMs to the figures that you determined to be the minimum that you could go without lugging the engine. This will allow you to moderately accelerate in a gear without having to downshift.

If I'm driving an unfamiliar vehicle with a manual transmission (like when I'm in the UK or Europe), I tend to just go by the sound of the engine.

EDITED 2018.09.29 -- Now that I have my JL, I can relay my experience with it. If you are not in a hurry, you can easily drive it around town and get up to highway speeds while keeping the RPMs in the 1000-2000 range. Most people are not accelerating that fast from stop lights and even when you limit yourself to a max of 2000 RPMs, you still out-accelerate the vast majority of the people on the roads.

 

[WXman]

So the topic was how does the JL manual compare to the JK manual, right? Well owners have stated that the JL manual shifts more smoothly and the throw of the shifter is greatly reduced. So, driveability is surely better. However, 2nd through 6th are taller on the JL so there is simply no way that it can perform better. Just no way.

Now, on the Sport and Sahara models, you get 3.45 gears standard. So that's where any performance benefit would lie. But on the Rubicon the performance should actually be slightly worse considering that the trans. gearing is taller and the tires are now taller too. On paper, a stock manual JK Rubicon should outperform a stock manual JL Rubicon especially while towing.

 

[DanW]

So the topic was how does the JL manual compare to the JK manual, right? Well owners have stated that the JL manual shifts more smoothly and the throw of the shifter is greatly reduced. So, driveability is surely better. However, 2nd through 6th are taller on the JL so there is simply no way that it can perform better. Just no way.

Now, on the Sport and Sahara models, you get 3.45 gears standard. So that's where any performance benefit would lie. But on the Rubicon the performance should actually be slightly worse considering that the trans. gearing is taller and the tires are now taller too. On paper, a stock manual JK Rubicon should outperform a stock manual JL Rubicon especially while towing.

Well, it does. Again, mine slowly pulls away from my buddy's 2 door JK Rubi from zero to about 60 or 70. Both manuals. Both 4.10. Both with 35's of equal measurement from ground to the top of the tire. The JL has 14% more torque in the lower part of the rpm band. It acts like it has it in the upper, too, but I'm not sure. He's got a K&N and cat back Magnaflow, for what that's worth. (Probably nothing.) Of course, this is just 1 JL vs a JK. I believe it was Car and Driver that got something like 6.2 0-60 out of a base 2 door sport with standard tires/wheels/final drive ratio. No factory JK ever got close to that.

 

[NavyVet1959]

It wasn't that many years ago that a 6.2 second 0-60 mph time was good for sports cars. The 944 Turbo that I had from 1989 supposedly had a 5.5 second 0-60 time and the RX-7 that I also had was rated at supposedly 7.7 seconds and it definitely felt sporty and fun. I have no reason to believe that the acceleration on the 2-door JL won't be acceptable.

Also, a 1981 Porsche 911 SC was only 6.6 seconds.

 

[LLRubylady]

Dumb question maybe but why is the manual only 6 speed and the auto 8?

I've done some reading and it a lot of articles say the rubicon is better suited with the 8 speed automatic, that the engine doesn't work as hard to keep the speed as the manual does.

 

[Karl_in_Chicago]

Dumb question maybe but why is the manual only 6 speed and the auto 8?

I've done some reading and it a lot of articles say the rubicon is better suited with the 8 speed automatic, that the engine doesn't work as hard to keep the speed as the manual does.

I don't know that anyone has offered an 8 spd manual in a mainstream vehicle. I'd imagine the additional complexity, size and weight of the trans would be not much fun for the designers to make work and fit for not much benefit. 4th gear in the Jeep 6-speed is 1:1 and 5th and 6th are both OD. The only "benefit" more gears would really provide is closer spaced ratios but the driver would spend a lot of time shifting to maximize that benefit (with who knows what kind of longer term impact on clutch wear). Just my $0.02.

 

[LLRubylady]

I don't know that anyone has offered an 8 spd manual in a mainstream vehicle. I'd imagine the additional complexity, size and weight of the trans would be not much fun for the designers to make work and fit for not much benefit. 4th gear in the Jeep 6-speed is 1:1 and 5th and 6th are both OD. The only "benefit" more gears would really provide is closer spaced ratios but the driver would spend a lot of time shifting to maximize that benefit (with who knows what kind of longer term impact on clutch wear). Just my $0.02.

THanks
I'm learning quite a bit reading these forums. My husband doesn't get why I care. But I'm the kind that likes to know how things work. I also think it is beneficial for when I go to a servicing dealer if i have a little knowledge they can't BS me.

 

[spurly]

Dumb question maybe but why is the manual only 6 speed and the auto 8?

I've done some reading and it a lot of articles say the rubicon is better suited with the 8 speed automatic, that the engine doesn't work as hard to keep the speed as the manual does.

Corvette's can be had with a 7speed, but that's a sports car. If they were to offer a 7 or even 8 speed manual, the top two gears would likely be remain overdrive gears, at which point you'll be rowing through the lower gears so quickly around town you'll feel like a truck driver. Really not practical for a jeep. I also don't think the jeep makes enough power to support more than 2 OD gears.

 

[johnnymiz]

1. too easy to miss a shift with an extra line of gears
2. jeep doesnt even need 6.. just the same 1-4 with a 5th overdrive with a ratio somewhere in between the current 5 and 6 would be good.

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