Must be a Jeep Thing!

[Gray Fox]

I can’t believe German luxury vehicles somehow became the benchmark of quality. Perhaps our standards have collectively slipped.

I will admit when I couldn’t afford one and was on the outside looking in, I thought they were better.

I guess since the SUVs are built in South Carolina and Alabama. Not little German guys (no racism intended).

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[Bobjon18]

We ran into one of these issues and had to pull fuses on and replace them. Just loose fuse for ours. That is what was causing our back up lines to disappear.

 

[Firemadz]

The UConnect issues have been documented and will unfortunately probably get worse for you. It all started after the software update last August. I intermittently has the USB connections drop, grid lines disappear, and occasionally the entire system freeze, which initially would reset after turning the car off and back on. Now, when the system locks up, the only way to reset it is to pull the fuse. See the video below. I opened a case with @JeepCares last November. 2 trips to the dealer, they finalordered me a new radio, but I doubt it’s a hardware issue. I’ve been waiting on the new radio for over a month. Jeep told me they were told another UConnect update was to be released the middle of January, but to take it to the dealer to be installed. Dealer said I had the latest version. Now Jeep Cares won’t respond to me about the status of the update. Very frustrating.

 

[Majestic]

I will admit when I couldn’t afford one and was on the outside looking in, I thought they were better.

I guess since the SUVs are built in South Carolina and Alabama. Not little German guys (no racism intended).

It’s the engineers who suck, not the automotive robots in South Carolina and Alabama.
It’s almost as if their cars are designed to cost the owner as much as possible just for the sake of it. Everything from initial cost, to premium gas, terrible gas mileage, expensive routine maintenance, to overdesigned parts, to horrendous depreciation. It’s a cash incinerator. At least the customer service is great.

 

[EZMFE]

I agree, I don't understand why people keep say its not really a $XX vehicle, yes it is since thats what the Sticker on the window says like any other vehicle you buy. Now if you want to say that it is not worth the sticker price, then that is something totally different.

Oh yeah, I forgot, we're not in an auto bubble or anything. So if the dealer added a bunch of stuff and also put a "sticker" in the window that changed the total value to include the parts and labor of that additional stuff, would you also believe the vehicle is now worth that price?

Do you know what your vehicle is worth the moment you drive it off the lot? Why isn't it worth the sticker price once it has been registered?

Go to your favorite "find my car's value" site, select your vehicle but mark it as used. Put in all the options that you purchased and what mileage it was at the day you purchased it. That 58k vehicle or whatever price, isn't worth that anymore now is it. The price that it shows would be the price you should be paying and/or reducing your loan amount to if buying today.

Now you can pay how many ever thousand but to keep the vehicle on par with depreciation you are going to want to put down and / or negotiate enough money to bring the loan amount to the what the vehicle is truly worth. That way, when you are paying payments, there is a far better chance of the loan and the depreciation of the vehicle matching as the years pass. Paying more will cause one to always be upside down in the vehicle which essentially forces them to keep it or add the amount that they are upside down to a new loan when purchasing the next vehicle.

In some cases you may not be able to select the vehicle due to it not being added to the site yet or not enough data to determine the value. If that is the case you may need to pick the earlier year if it's the exact same vehicle. There would be a difference in price when dealing with a 2019 and using a 2018 as a reference and as the months pass it would loose any accuracy.

You can tell your friends that it is a 58k vehicle and brag to your girlfriend but don't bs yourself into thinking it is.

 

[pablo_max3045]

It’s the engineers who suck, not the automotive robots in South Carolina and Alabama.
It’s almost as if their cars are designed to cost the owner as much as possible just for the sake of it. Everything from initial cost, to premium gas, terrible gas mileage, expensive routine maintenance, to overdesigned parts, to horrendous depreciation. It’s a cash incinerator. At least the customer service is great.

Not sure I would agree with this.
Are they reliable compared to Honda accord? Nope. Of course not.
Typically, the BMWs and Mercs you get in the states tend to be the larger engines with higher output. They are both considered performance luxury sedans. Their driving characteristics are significantly different that say, a Ford Taurus.
You cannot buy a high performance machine and expect the maintenance cycle to be the same as a Honda Civic. It simply is not reasonable.
As a general rule, high HP motors are less reliable than low HP motors. There is simply more strain on all the components from the motor all the way down the drive train.
Do not confuse fragility with quality. They are not the same thing. You can drop your giant coffee mug and it likely will not break. If you drop bone china, it's gone. You cannot say that the China is lower quality.
Here in Germany you can buy a bare bones BMW or Merc with a small motor. Even a diesel one. They will run forever.
What the German makers excel at over other brands is fit and finish. Try to find a wide panel gap, interior or exterior.

I was just trying to think of one, but I am not sure that a "reliable" performance luxury sedan which has the maintenance costs of a Honda even exists. Even something like a caddy has high maintenance costs and huge repair bills. My Jaguar was actually really reliable, but maintenance was really expensive.

For horrible depreciation. This is true of all performance luxury cars. After a few years they are dirt cheap. I am not talking sports cars or super cars, which can go up in value though.

Having said all that, I would never buy a Merc. In the late 80's and early 90's they did make a decision to lower the quality on their cars in order to both increase the profits and decrease the live of the cars. Around 2007 or so they decided they had better refocus and start making good cars, engineered to last a long time again. However since they made crap for so long intentionally, I will never buy their products. As I will never again buy anything from the VW Audio group due to the damage they have done to the image of Germany and our economy. They made billions out of the emissions scandal.

 

[Spartan99]

Not sure I would agree with this.
Are they reliable compared to Honda accord? Nope. Of course not.
Typically, the BMWs and Mercs you get in the states tend to be the larger engines with higher output. They are both considered performance luxury sedans. Their driving characteristics are significantly different that say, a Ford Taurus.
You cannot buy a high performance machine and expect the maintenance cycle to be the same as a Honda Civic. It simply is not reasonable.
As a general rule, high HP motors are less reliable than low HP motors. There is simply more strain on all the components from the motor all the way down the drive train.
Do not confuse fragility with quality. They are not the same thing. You can drop your giant coffee mug and it likely will not break. If you drop bone china, it's gone. You cannot say that the China is lower quality.
Here in Germany you can buy a bare bones BMW or Merc with a small motor. Even a diesel one. They will run forever.
What the German makers excel at over other brands is fit and finish. Try to find a wide panel gap, interior or exterior.

I was just trying to think of one, but I am not sure that a "reliable" performance luxury sedan which has the maintenance costs of a Honda even exists. Even something like a caddy has high maintenance costs and huge repair bills. My Jaguar was actually really reliable, but maintenance was really expensive.

For horrible depreciation. This is true of all performance luxury cars. After a few years they are dirt cheap. I am not talking sports cars or super cars, which can go up in value though.

Having said all that, I would never buy a Merc. In the late 80's and early 90's they did make a decision to lower the quality on their cars in order to both increase the profits and decrease the live of the cars. Around 2007 or so they decided they had better refocus and start making good cars, engineered to last a long time again. However since they made crap for so long intentionally, I will never buy their products. As I will never again buy anything from the VW Audio group due to the damage they have done to the image of Germany and our economy. They made billions out of the emissions scandal.

It’s not a reflection of Germany. It’s a reflection of terrible corporate behavior. It happens everywhere.

 

[Majestic]

I agree, I don't understand why people keep say its not really a $XX vehicle, yes it is since thats what the Sticker on the window says like any other vehicle you buy. Now if you want to say that it is not worth the sticker price, then that is something totally different.

What they’re saying is If you bought a $20k Kia and put a diamond encrusted steering wheel on it and charged $100K for it, it doesn’t become a Porsche.

 

[Majestic]

Not sure I would agree with this.
Are they reliable compared to Honda accord? Nope. Of course not.
Typically, the BMWs and Mercs you get in the states tend to be the larger engines with higher output. They are both considered performance luxury sedans. Their driving characteristics are significantly different that say, a Ford Taurus.
You cannot buy a high performance machine and expect the maintenance cycle to be the same as a Honda Civic. It simply is not reasonable.
As a general rule, high HP motors are less reliable than low HP motors. There is simply more strain on all the components from the motor all the way down the drive train.
Do not confuse fragility with quality. They are not the same thing. You can drop your giant coffee mug and it likely will not break. If you drop bone china, it's gone. You cannot say that the China is lower quality.
Here in Germany you can buy a bare bones BMW or Merc with a small motor. Even a diesel one. They will run forever.
What the German makers excel at over other brands is fit and finish. Try to find a wide panel gap, interior or exterior.

I was just trying to think of one, but I am not sure that a "reliable" performance luxury sedan which has the maintenance costs of a Honda even exists. Even something like a caddy has high maintenance costs and huge repair bills. My Jaguar was actually really reliable, but maintenance was really expensive.

For horrible depreciation. This is true of all performance luxury cars. After a few years they are dirt cheap. I am not talking sports cars or super cars, which can go up in value though.

Having said all that, I would never buy a Merc. In the late 80's and early 90's they did make a decision to lower the quality on their cars in order to both increase the profits and decrease the live of the cars. Around 2007 or so they decided they had better refocus and start making good cars, engineered to last a long time again. However since they made crap for so long intentionally, I will never buy their products. As I will never again buy anything from the VW Audio group due to the damage they have done to the image of Germany and our economy. They made billions out of the emissions scandal.

My problem isn't with fit and finish, but with overall engineering decisions. As an engineer, I look at older BMWs' grill with a small push fan in front of the radiator, and a large pull fan from behind the radiator and scratch my head as that looks like an afterthought added on by a guy in his garage. What everybody else can apparently accomplish with one fan, BMW uses two.
Cupholders used to drive me nuts. My busted cheap Focus had molded one piece cup holders that will outlive the car. The German brands of those days had a flimsy pop out cup holder that came out of the dash that unfolded into about 10 flimsy moving parts that blocked your radio if a cup was actually in it and typically broke and wouldn't retract.
I've never been in a BMW that didn't have that cheap, squeaky sound in the door when you close it. As they age it seems to get squeakier. I don't know if it's the stiff suspension that eventually knocks everything else loose or what, but BMWs don't seem to age gracefully.
BMW has a "battery minder" system that requires the dealer to install your battery to reset the system, but the system itself never does it's job and warn you your battery is about to die and the battery doesn't last any longer than any other battery. Just added complexity and ownership cost for no reason. Forget taking it to Autozone for a free battery install.
Some performance oriented features are used where they shouldn't be, like the BMW X5. Rear tires shred themselves in less than 10K miles because of aggressive rear camber that's intended for a performance attribute nobody is ever going to use (who takes an X5 to a race track?). Save that nonsense for M models. The X5 is going to spend the majority of it's life in the Starbucks drive through, not Laguna Seca.
Some engine choices seem more like they're restrained by shortsighted European regulations than actually being the best engineering decision. Take the famed E46 BMW M3 for example. It was over 100hp per liter (333hp) which was touted as an achievement. But why? GMs LS1 engine of that era was 5.7L and put out 350hp. Not impressive per liter, but overall it was more fuel efficient (the Corvette itself was more aerodynamic and lighter which helped), the engine itself was lighter and smaller with a lower center of gravity (OHV)and was much simpler (just two valves per cylinder and one cam) and much cheaper (a full crate motor could be had for less than $5K). Either BMW didn't see the forest through the trees or they were just hamstrung by some sort of European regulation against engine displacement. It is much easier to get reliability out of a large displacement performance engine as it makes power in the most simple way possible. Trying to get a tiny engine to make big power requires a lot of complexity, much higher compression, higher rpms, turbos, multiple cams. etc. It takes a lot more moving parts, higher performance lubricants, tighter tolerances, and overall added cost.
When it comes to efficiency, the Europeans in general always seem so far behind. The best hybrids come from Japan and the best BEVs and PHEVs come from America. It seems the Europeans only have to two tricks 1) make the engine really tiny, slap on a turbo, and make the owner buy premium gas for the rest of their lives, or 2) make a diesel and cheat on emissions.
Here in America, most Americans have aspired to owning premium German brands, so nothing is apparently wrong with their marketing and brand image but once I look behind the curtain, I'm like "couldn't this have been done much easier?".
On that note, I think some of our domestic brands have a thing or two to learn from BMW and Mercedes about dealership customer service and fit and finish and overall initial quality. There's no reason Jeep owners should have a checklist of things to look at that may have been missed at the factory.

 

[RubiRob]

Apple carplay is very unreliable, but I would point the finger at Apple for that one. It's just a terribly designed / functioning app.

 

[Shots]

.... I am waiting on 5000 miles to have the oil changed while I am there. With the ESS issue, I may go sooner.

Why not just turn ESS off until you go in for that oil change? Then you're not wasting a trip to the dealership.

What they’re saying is If you bought a $20k Kia and put a diamond encrusted steering wheel on it and charged $100K for it, it doesn’t become a Porsche.

But we're not talking about add on items. We're talking about the MSRP.
When someone looks at a any car/truck/suv they aren't familiar with (and/or don't plan on purchasing) they don't look up the average new purchase price to determine if it is an $xxK vehicle. They look at the list price, it's really that simple.
A Corvette Z06 is considered a $80K car, a Ford Raptor is considered a $50K truck, and a Range Rover is considered a $90K SUV. Are any of those "worth" that price? No and you can probably get them all cheaper than that. However, that's the MSRP, so that's how people refer to them. So why is the Wrangler any different? Just because we're enthusiasts, and we know how much you can buy one for? When comparing to other vehicles, you still start at the MSRP just like any other vehicle.
So is an optioned out Sahara/Rubicon a $50K vehicle? For conversation and comparison purposes, yes. After all, that $20K Kia can probably be bought for $15, but you reference it by the MSRP just like everyone else who isn't familiar with that vehicle. That's how vehicles' prices are compared. Not by the typical negotiated prices, or price with modifications, but instead they're referenced by sticker prices.

Apple carplay is very unreliable, but I would point the finger at Apple for that one. It's just a terribly designed / functioning app.

Android Auto sucks too. I have factory navigation, and use the standard Uconnect features to manage calls and messages. I don't understand everyone's desire to use one of the other two apps to do the same stuff Uconnect already does flawlessly.

 

[RubiRob]

Why not just turn ESS off until you go in for that oil change? Then you're not wasting a trip to the dealership.

But we're not talking about add on items. We're talking about the MSRP.
When someone looks at a any car/truck/suv they aren't familiar with (and/or don't plan on purchasing) they don't look up the average new purchase price to determine if it is an $xxK vehicle. They look at the list price, it's really that simple.
A Corvette Z06 is considered a $80K car, a Ford Raptor is considered a $50K truck, and a Range Rover is considered a $90K SUV. Are any of those "worth" that price? No and you can probably get them all cheaper than that. However, that's the MSRP, so that's how people refer to them. So why is the Wrangler any different? Just because we're enthusiasts, and we know how much you can buy one for? When comparing to other vehicles, you still start at the MSRP just like any other vehicle.
So is an optioned out Sahara/Rubicon a $50K vehicle? For conversation and comparison purposes, yes. After all, that $20K Kia can probably be bought for $15, but you reference it by the MSRP just like everyone else who isn't familiar with that vehicle. That's how vehicles' prices are compared. Not by the typical negotiated prices, or price with modifications, but instead they're referenced by sticker prices.

Android Auto sucks too. I have factory navigation, and use the standard Uconnect features to manage calls and messages. I don't understand everyone's desire to use one of the other two apps to do the same stuff Uconnect already does flawlessly.

I'm using a pixel 3 and Android auto has been absolutely reliable on the day to day. Can't remember the last time I had an issue with it. Using Google Assistant is much much much better than uconnect, and so is Waze and many other features .

 

[Shots]

Hmmmm. I may have to try it again. I had a Samsung J3 and tried Android Auto on my Ram. I was far from impressed. I've got a Moto G6 now, so maybe it and/or the current version of A.A. is better.

 

[Todd6571]

I was just trying to think of one, but I am not sure that a "reliable" performance luxury sedan which has the maintenance costs of a Honda even exists.

Could not let this pass, not that it has anything to do with the OP's point. Reliable performance luxury sedans exist, and they are made by Lexus. You decide which ones you want to call "performance". Source: J.D. Power 2019 Vehicle Dependability Study. And all new vehicles depreciate, but the Wrangler is usually the least depreciating new vehicle available.

OP, I had lots of issues with my '08 JK Rubicon when it was new (2nd year of the JK). I'm blessed with a great dealer where I live they fixed them all to my satisfaction. That was a two door. Our family grew, and we needed the four door, so we traded for an '09 JKU Rubicon. Absolutely no issues. Not one. These Jeeps are a bit of a crap shoot, but hopefully your dealer can solve it all. Maybe it will take a trade.

 

[word302]

I will try to find the video.
Don't even try to pretend that Jeeps are well screwed together, because they just aren't. I don't think there is anything wrong with the engineering designs, I just think the workers at the plant are crap at their jobs.
So far my JLUR is fine, but I only have 30KM on the clock.
My JKU has life threatening issues due to them literally not doing their jobs. The just "forgot" to tighten up bolts all over the car.
My brand new TJ also had a lot of niggles due to crap workmanship.
I don't care what the reason they have for neglecting to do a good job in what they do. People can literally die when they slack off.

0 issues with my TJ. 0 issues so far with my JLUR.

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