Aftermarket alternator?

[roaniecowpony]

As I said above,
1) the jeep has killed two sets of batteries in 10,000 miles. That’s an undesirable feature, because batteries are expensive, and

2) Driving the jeep 20 or 30 miles 2 or three days per week is insufficient to keep the batteries anywhere close to fully charged, and

3) Taken together, these challenges, together with the results on the diagnostic tool, suggest there may be something wrong with battery charging.

You're not alone. My Gen2 Genesis system killed my Odyssey batteries (3 of them). They seemed to hold up for almost a couple years each. But it was overcharging them. I put a new engine with a brand new alternator in my JL, along with a brand new Mopar PCM (which has the regulator) and it killed the replacement Odyssey main and finished off the aux.

I installed the Gen3 in April and went on a road trip and it drained the brand new FullThrottle batteries down to 12.4v during the trip and the alternator would only charge at 12.6v. I've replaced the PCM with my spare, replaced the alternator with a spare, and replaced the IBS. None of those things corrected the decay to 12.6v charging rate. Everytime the battery is disconnected the charging resets to 14.3v and it's fine for a while but decays over a 100 mile long drive and few cycles. I verified these Gen3 Genesis battery charging issues over months of testing. Basically, the Gen2 overcharges the batteries and the Gen3 undercharges.

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[Ratbert]

You're not alone. My Gen2 Genesis system killed my Odyssey batteries (3 of them). They seemed to hold up for almost a couple years each. But it was overcharging them. I put a new engine with a brand new alternator in my JL, along with a brand new Mopar PCM (which has the regulator) and it killed the replacement Odyssey main and finished off the aux.

I installed the Gen3 in April and went on a road trip and it drained the brand new FullThrottle batteries down to 12.4v during the trip and the alternator would only charge at 12.6v. I've replaced the PCM with my spare, replaced the alternator with a spare, and replaced the IBS. None of those things corrected the decay to 12.6v charging rate. Everytime the battery is disconnected the charging resets to 14.3v and it's fine for a while but decays over a 100 mile long drive and few cycles. I verified these Gen3 Genesis battery charging issues over months of testing. Basically, the Gen2 overcharges the batteries and the Gen3 undercharges.

Holy shit. Sorry if this is a stupid question, but has @Genesis Offroad chimed in on the issue?

 

[roaniecowpony]

Holy shit. Sorry if this is a stupid question, but has @Genesis Offroad chimed in on the issue?

I called them in April, suspecting it was the newly installed Gen3. The told me nothing on their board would affect the charging voltage.

So, I installed the Gen2 again about a week and change ago, and it charged at 14.3v and never decayed.

Last night, I re-installed the Gen3 just to verify it decays to 12.6v again. A 30 mile loop around PV and it's starting to drop. Still up around 13.8v (which is fine) but if I'm right about this device, it will decay back down to 12.6v and stay there, with the battery voltages around 12.4v (60% charge). I want to be doubly sure it's their product causing this. My uneducated guess is that their battery charging management device is not playing well with the IBS and PCM.

 

[Mguy]

As I said above,
1) the jeep has killed two sets of batteries in 10,000 miles. That’s an undesirable feature, because batteries are expensive, and

2) Driving the jeep 20 or 30 miles 2 or three days per week is insufficient to keep the batteries anywhere close to fully charged, and

3) Taken together, these challenges, together with the results on the diagnostic tool, suggest there may be something wrong with battery charging.

Taking out the reference to "diagnostic" results (which provide zero info), you've stated a problem which can be addressed. Seems though, given your driving/charging routine, your electrical aftermarket choices, along with your posts in this thread, that you've been drinking forum Kool-Aid.

With your driving, equipment, and continuous charging, it is not clear that you should expect anything different than what you're reporting.

 

[Whaler27]

Taking out the reference to "diagnostic" results (which provide zero info), you've stated a problem which can be addressed. Seems though, given your driving/charging routine, your electrical aftermarket choices, along with your posts in this thread, that you've been drinking forum Kool-Aid.

With your driving, equipment, and continuous charging, it is not clear that you should expect anything different than what you're reporting.

This provides zero useful information.

If I was inclined to be a useless smart-ass I could answer every question posed on the forum with, “Given your equipment, your choices, and your driving behaviors, it’s not clear you should expect anything different”.

Over the last fifty years I have had many vehicles with dual batteries. I currently own ten vehicles, three of which have dual batteries: the JL and two Ford pickups. Both Ford trucks are newer than the jeep and have similarly irritating computer complexities that update over the air. Both Ford trucks will fire right up after sitting for a couple weeks, and both will maintain a good state of charge if they’re driven two or three days per week.

The Innova 5610 is a highly rated, “professional grade”, bidirectional, OBD2 scan tool with software updated through 2023. It was set for the program parameters of a 2019 Jeep wrangler with the 3.6, and it’s test protocol during alternator evaluation required an interval at idle, and interval with increased electrical load, an interval above 2000 RPM, and an extended return to idle without load. The tool prompts the owner when it thinks it’s time to move to the next interval. At the end of this test and many others the tool diagnosed an alternator output/charging problem. Is this all bullshit? Maybe. Experience has taught me to respect the opinions of several who weighed in with that opinion here, but I haven’t eliminated the possibility that the tool has actually been properly programmed to interpret the jeeps charging performance. Since you discount it out-of-hand, perhaps you can link me to a helpful source that explains why the Innova 5610 is incapable of doing what it claims to do?

I have no idea what your reference to “drinking forum Kool-Aid” is intended to communicate, but it’s perfectly reasonable to expect a vehicle that’s driven 50 miles per week to continue functioning properly. I have defaulted to outfitting my shop with wall to wall smart-chargers because batteries are expensive and some of our vehicles go months of more without being driven, but only the 2019 Wrangler is this problematic.

 

[roaniecowpony]

Taking out the reference to "diagnostic" results (which provide zero info), you've stated a problem which can be addressed. Seems though, given your driving/charging routine, your electrical aftermarket choices, along with your posts in this thread, that you've been drinking forum Kool-Aid.

With your driving, equipment, and continuous charging, it is not clear that you should expect anything different than what you're reporting.

A modern "smart" charger has battery state of charge sensing and variable charging, which can be left on a battery indefinitely to maintain it's state of charge. They aren't anything like the chargers from yesteryear. For the record, all vehicles continuously charge the batteries when running (obviously).

 

[Whaler27]

I called them in April, suspecting it was the newly installed Gen3. The told me nothing on their board would affect the charging voltage.

So, I installed the Gen2 again about a week and change ago, and it charged at 14.3v and never decayed.

Last night, I re-installed the Gen3 just to verify it decays to 12.6v again. A 30 mile loop around PV and it's starting to drop. Still up around 13.8v (which is fine) but if I'm right about this device, it will decay back down to 12.6v and stay there, with the battery voltages around 12.4v (60% charge). I want to be doubly sure it's their product causing this. My uneducated guess is that their battery charging management device is not playing well with the IBS and PCM.

Thank you. This is both useful and discouraging.

I was leaning toward getting the Gen-3 Genesis top, because they’ve finally got a solution which nearly eliminates the parasitic draw caused by their relay on the last generation, but it’s another $500! Frankly, that pisses me off. That’s a lot to ask for an upgrade that can’t possibly cost them more than $150 to build and ship. I realize they’re in business to make money, and I’m good with that, but when your new product does little more than fix a problem that your extremely expensive former product created, it’s reasonable to expect a little help. Maybe credit the customer with a $200 rebate when the battery-draining Gen2 top is returned? Something… Instead, the loyal customer gets bent over the desk for the full $500 PLUS a shipping charge! That left a terrible taste in my mouth, so I passed. I no longer recommend Genesis.

 

[mwilk012]

As I said above,
1) the jeep has killed two sets of batteries in 10,000 miles. That’s an undesirable feature, because batteries are expensive, and

2) Driving the jeep 20 or 30 miles 2 or three days per week is insufficient to keep the batteries anywhere close to fully charged, and

3) Taken together, these challenges, together with the results on the diagnostic tool, suggest there may be something wrong with battery charging.

Can you define “killed”?

You keep mentioning the vehicle being low mileage as if that’s a good thing, yet the problem seems to be the changes that you have made to it combined with its low mileage status. Very likely you would have been better off with the factory aux battery setup.

 

[Whaler27]

Can you define “killed”?

Really?

The batteries have been rendered ineffective. They no longer accept and hold a full charge properly. When tested by NAPA or Batteries Plus, they “fail“ and are not suitable for “reconditioning”. They no workee.

The first set was the twin Odyssey batteries that used to come with the Genesis system. Once you’ve committed to that size, your future options are limited.

The second set was Optima red-top.

The third set, also Optima red-top, just went into the jeep. (I could find no other batteries locally that fit the space/orientation/power parameters.)

The Odyssey dual battery pair in my boat lasted almost 15 years. The replacement pair was healthy at the 5 year mark when I sold the boat. (Of course they weren’t constantly burdened with all the computer bullshit new jeeps have). I believe Odyssey still makes quality batteries. Optima quality isn’t what it once was, but they don’t suck bad enough to explain what we’re experiencing.

 

[Ratbert]

Really?

The batteries have been rendered ineffective. They no longer accept and hold a full charge properly. When tested by NAPA or Batteries Plus, they “fail“ and are not suitable for “reconditioning”. They no workee.

The first set was the twin Odyssey batteries that used to come with the Genesis system. Once you’ve committed to that size, your future options are limited.

The second set was Optima red-top.

The third set, also Optima red-top, just went into the jeep. (I could find no other batteries locally that fit the space/orientation/power parameters.)

The Odyssey dual battery pair in my boat lasted almost 15 years. The replacement pair was healthy at the 5 year mark when I sold the boat. (Of course they weren’t constantly burdened with all the computer bullshit new jeeps have). I believe Odyssey still makes quality batteries. Optima quality isn’t what it once was, but they don’t suck bad enough to explain what we’re experiencing.

How challenging is it to bypass the Genesis system to determine if it's the root cause?

 

[mwilk012]

How challenging is it to bypass the Genesis system to determine if it's the root cause?

Sounds like it will take another 2 years to see if it makes a difference.

 

[Mguy]

A modern "smart" charger has battery state of charge sensing and variable charging, which can be left on a battery indefinitely to maintain it's state of charge. They aren't anything like the chargers from yesteryear.

Modern "smart" chargers fall into two categories. "Consumer" grade devices use "on-off" logic for terminating/starting charging and then "maintaining" battery health. The better such devices are generally fine for a system which has no (or typically, virtually no) loads while the device is properly attached and plugged in. They are generally poor choices for systems which have loads (especially those that vary) which remain on while charging/maintaining.

"Professional" grade devices will have well regulated float stage charging which is far better for battery health when there are loads present.

For the record, all vehicles continuously charge the batteries when running (obviously).

Yes, obviously, with the understanding that "smart" voltage regulation may include charging shut-off when the float stage is complete, meaning current is not required to "maintain" a full battery charge.

And for the record, my stock JL (which has the aux battery disconnected) does a pretty good job of float stage regulation. It's keeping my 5 year old Mopar battery fully charged, and fully capable, with no external charging/maintaining whatsoever.

 

[roaniecowpony]

Thank you. This is both useful and discouraging.

I was leaning toward getting the Gen-3 Genesis top, because they’ve finally got a solution which nearly eliminates the parasitic draw caused by their relay on the last generation, but it’s another $500! Frankly, that pisses me off. That’s a lot to ask for an upgrade that can’t possibly cost them more than $150 to build and ship. I realize they’re in business to make money, and I’m good with that, but when your new product does little more than fix a problem that your extremely expensive former product created, it’s reasonable to expect a little help. Maybe credit the customer with a $200 rebate when the battery-draining Gen2 top is returned? Something… Instead, the loyal customer gets bent over the desk for the full $500 PLUS a shipping charge! That left a terrible taste in my mouth, so I passed. I no longer recommend Genesis.

Yeah, I'm several thousand into Genesis and batteries. What a frustrating experience. I'll see of they stand behind their products. I bought this Gen3 plate about a year and change ago and it sat in my garage until a couple months ago. I'm guessing I'm out of luck.

 

[Terrymo]

Yeah, I'm several thousand into Genesis and batteries. What a frustrating experience. I'll see of they stand behind their products. I bought this Gen3 plate about a year and change ago and it sat in my garage until a couple months ago. I'm guessing I'm out of luck.

This is very disappointing to hear.

 

[Mguy]

I have no idea what your reference to “drinking forum Kool-Aid” is intended to communicate . . . .

Forum Kool-Aid defined,
There is an aftermarket solution for every JL problem, and for every JL owner who thinks there is a problem.

Forum Kool-Aid comes in different flavors and of different intensities. Hard to tell exactly what you've been drinking.

My statement, "With your driving, equipment, and continuous charging, it is not clear that you should expect anything different than what you're reporting," was short handed from your posts. Those show you have replaced stock equipment with an aftermarket 2 battery system and you continually use, in an unknown way, a charging device of unknown capabilities and limitations. Your driving is infrequent enough to doubt that a functioning alternator alone would keep 2 batteries at full charge. And it is unknown what other loads/factors are involved, including ESS operation.

So it's not clear that the 2 battery/charging system/routine you created and use is expected to function well. Perhaps you will pursue meaningful diagnostics before replacing the alternator.

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