What's Your Tools and Methods for Navigation?

[roaniecowpony]

We were on trails at Moab this past week. We had some OK equipment and maps. We still had some difficulty with knowing where we were when apparently the GPS constellation was acting up. But eventually the GPS system came back up. Still, it was difficult navigate on either the phones or small handheld GPS units.

I was thinking about a tablet mount on the passenger side for my shotgun spotter. So, my question is: Which is better? A tablet with an app like Trails Offroad? or a dedicated large screen offroad type GPS?

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[TX_Ovrlnd]

GPS is nice to have, but it can fail. Always good to have some analog backup. A tablet with a downloaded map is good too.

 

[ChuckQue]

As @TX_Ovrlnd said, I usually carry a hard copy map of where I’m at. I primarily use an iPad mini with Gaia GPS and Trails Off-road for navigation. I don’t have cellular on that iPad, so I opted to use a Garmin Glo 2 GPS receiver that I pair with the iPad via Bluetooth. I then download the maps of the area ahead of time. This method has worked very well, the dedicated GPS receiver is super fast at positioning and it’s less taxing on the iPad or iPhone when I use it.

Bonus is when you have the dedicated receiver if you are out hiking you can use it instead of your phone’s GPS, which is a major difference in battery consumption on the phone.

 

[DLW]

Also nice thing about Gaia, is it works with android auto and carplay, so if you have the 8.4, you can have it on the big screen using your phone. I have an ipad mini as a backup, and I like the idea of having a separate GPS receiver as @ChuckQue pointed out.

 

[Flip]

Paper maps, gazetteer, road atlas. My little Garmin GPS is so old she has developed a slight speech impediment. Still works though.

 

[Ratbert]

Did the GPS constellation seriously act up? I've written code for massive radar systems that rely on it being there and being an accurate time source. Fortunately I'm not in that industry any more, but I assume I would have heard something about an issue like that.

 

[Red19]

Paper is always a good option. This book got me through Moab a few times.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1934838292/

 

[SadRobot]

I use an ipad mini that has GPS but I don't have it on any cell network. I download all my maps beforehand and load them on the ipad and then do a split screen of GAIA and Trails Offroad like this:

I also download offline google maps on my iphone of the area I'm going to. Google offline maps seem to be hit or miss on whether they work or not.

I also have a Garmin InReach Mini 2 but have the lowest plan and only have it in case of emergency.

 

[Reinen]

First of all the GPS constellation didn't "act up". GPS does require line of sight to at least 3 satellites. In deep narrow valleys you may only have a narrow band of sky to work with. You will certainly lose GPS accuracy there. If there aren't 3 satellites in the narrow band of sky you can see, you will lose your position.

2nd, DO NOT MOUNT ANYTHING ABOVE THE PASSENGER GRAB HANDLE.
It is a very tempting spot to mount something like a navigator's tablet but that is the passenger airbag. If the airbag deploys anything mounted above the grab handle will be violently shot directly into the passenger. It will be ugly.

That said, definitely Android or iOS apps. Gaia, On-X, Trails Offroad, etc. They are updated far more often and easier than a stand-alone GPS device.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Gaia downloaded maps on phone and iPad, if that doesn't work you can always retrace how you got there. Paper maps? Unnecessary.

 

[Mx5red]

I use an ipad mini that has GPS but I don't have it on any cell network. I download all my maps beforehand and load them on the ipad and then do a split screen of GAIA and Trails Offroad like this:

I also download offline google maps on my iphone of the area I'm going to. Google offline maps seem to be hit or miss on whether they work or not.

I also have a Garmin InReach Mini 2 but have the lowest plan and only have it in case of emergency.

I didn’t know you can split screen like that.. that’s pretty awesome

 

[roaniecowpony]

First of all the GPS constellation didn't "act up". GPS does require line of sight to at least 3 satellites. In deep narrow valleys you may only have a narrow band of sky to work with. You will certainly lose GPS accuracy there. If there aren't 3 satellites in the narrow band of sky you can see, you will lose your position.

...

When this was occurring, gave that some thought. The consequences of a GPS "glitch" are huge and getting bigger all the time, with more uses being added. I worked in the commercial aviation industry as a regulatory engineer. I'm aware of GPS limitations. A system-wide issue would have been national news. We had a few devices of our own and another person had a couple. We both were having issues. My android phone had been working very well, but wouldn't even get within 20 miles of where we were. My friend's phone was closer, but still way off. Another party we ran into was having the same issues even on their dedicated GPS. I didn't fire up my Garmin. I should have, but the party we ran into were sure enough about where we were to proceed and that was the priority since we were going to have to race the sun to get out before dark. Later, it all resolved itself. It may have been terrain related, but it didn't seem like we were in a place where a large slice of sky was limited and I've used GPS since it came online decades ago. I did some searching and found the GPS.gov site. Here's an example of some information on an unrelated service notice. So, they do have planned outages and there is a process they have for reporting unplanned issues.

NOTICE ADVISORY TO NAVSTAR USERS (NANU) 2023058
SUBJ: SVN45 (PRN21) FORECAST OUTAGE JDAY 286/0615 - JDAY 286/1815
1. NANU TYPE: FCSTDV
NANU NUMBER: 2023058
NANU DTG: 060308Z OCT 2023
REFERENCE NANU: N/A
REF NANU DTG: N/A
SVN: 45
PRN: 21
START JDAY: 286
START TIME ZULU: 0615
START CALENDAR DATE: 13 OCT 2023
STOP JDAY: 286
STOP TIME ZULU: 1815
STOP CALENDAR DATE: 13 OCT 2023

2. CONDITION: GPS SATELLITE SVN45 (PRN21) WILL BE UNUSABLE ON JDAY 286
(13 OCT 2023) BEGINNING 0615 ZULU UNTIL JDAY 286 (13 OCT 2023)
ENDING 1815 ZULU.

3. POC: CIVILIAN - NAVCEN AT 703-313-5900, HTTPS://WWW.NAVCEN.USCG.GOV
MILITARY - GPS WARFIGHTER COLLABORATION CELL at HTTPS://GPS.AFSPC.AF.MIL/GPSOC, DSN 560-2541,
COMM 719-567-2541, [email protected], HTTPS://GPS.AFSPC.AF.MIL
MILITARY ALTERNATE - JOINT SPACE OPERATIONS CENTER, DSN 276-3526. COMM 805-606-3526.
[email protected]

 

[The Last Cowboy]

A real USGS map and a decent analog compass.

 

[Reinen]

When this was occurring, gave that some thought. The consequences of a GPS "glitch" are huge and getting bigger all the time, with more uses being added. I worked in the commercial aviation industry as a regulatory engineer. I'm aware of GPS limitations. A system-wide issue would have been national news. We had a few devices of our own and another person had a couple. We both were having issues. My android phone had been working very well, but wouldn't even get within 20 miles of where we were. My friend's phone was closer, but still way off. Another party we ran into was having the same issues even on their dedicated GPS. I didn't fire up my Garmin. I should have, but the party we ran into were sure enough about where we were to proceed and that was the priority since we were going to have to race the sun to get out before dark. Later, it all resolved itself. It may have been terrain related, but it didn't seem like we were in a place where a large slice of sky was limited and I've used GPS since it came online decades ago. I did some searching and found the GPS.gov site. Here's an example of some information on an unrelated service notice. So, they do have planned outages and there is a process they have for reporting unplanned issues.

NOTICE ADVISORY TO NAVSTAR USERS (NANU) 2023058
SUBJ: SVN45 (PRN21) FORECAST OUTAGE JDAY 286/0615 - JDAY 286/1815
1. NANU TYPE: FCSTDV
NANU NUMBER: 2023058
NANU DTG: 060308Z OCT 2023
REFERENCE NANU: N/A
REF NANU DTG: N/A
SVN: 45
PRN: 21
START JDAY: 286
START TIME ZULU: 0615
START CALENDAR DATE: 13 OCT 2023
STOP JDAY: 286
STOP TIME ZULU: 1815
STOP CALENDAR DATE: 13 OCT 2023

2. CONDITION: GPS SATELLITE SVN45 (PRN21) WILL BE UNUSABLE ON JDAY 286
(13 OCT 2023) BEGINNING 0615 ZULU UNTIL JDAY 286 (13 OCT 2023)
ENDING 1815 ZULU.

3. POC: CIVILIAN - NAVCEN AT 703-313-5900, HTTPS://WWW.NAVCEN.USCG.GOV
MILITARY - GPS WARFIGHTER COLLABORATION CELL at HTTPS://GPS.AFSPC.AF.MIL/GPSOC, DSN 560-2541,
COMM 719-567-2541, [email protected], HTTPS://GPS.AFSPC.AF.MIL
MILITARY ALTERNATE - JOINT SPACE OPERATIONS CENTER, DSN 276-3526. COMM 805-606-3526.
[email protected]

That's just one of 31 GNSS (US) satellites, 30 Galileo (EU) satellites, 24 GLONASS (Russia) satellites and 44 BeiDou/Compass (China) satellites. Most GPS devices can use two of these constellations. US devices typically use GNSS and Galileo, sometimes GLONASS. I've never seen a US device that uses BeiDou/Compass.

So 1/61st of the satellites being down for maintenance won't impact you at all if you have a wide view of the sky. They're dispersed among a 360 degree sphere and you need 3 of them in that narrow sliver of sky above a deep canyon. That's a much bigger problem and it doesn't always happen. GPS satellites are not in geosynchronous orbit so position and accuracy will come and go as satellites move in and out of that sliver of sky. That should be expected in the narrow deep canyons like those around Moab.

Which is why one should learn to read a topo map instead of completely relying on the GPS "You Are Here" mark. Sometimes that's the only way to determine where you are.

 

[roaniecowpony]

That's just one of 31 GNSS (US) satellites, 30 Galileo (EU) satellites, 24 GLONASS (Russia) satellites and 44 BeiDou/Compass (China) satellites. Most GPS devices can use two of these constellations. US devices typically use GNSS and Galileo, sometimes GLONASS. I've never seen a US device that uses BeiDou/Compass.

So 1/61st of the satellites being down for maintenance won't impact you at all if you have a wide view of the sky. They're dispersed among a 360 degree sphere and you need 3 of them in that narrow sliver of sky above a deep canyon. That's a much bigger problem and it doesn't always happen. GPS satellites are not in geosynchronous orbit so position and accuracy will come and go as satellites move in and out of that sliver of sky. That should be expected in the narrow deep canyons like those around Moab.

Which is why one should learn to read a topo map instead of completely relying on the GPS "You Are Here" mark. Sometimes that's the only way to determine where you are.

I don't want to belabor the point, but we were experiencing some kind of issue which caused us (both parties) to not be able to use the system at that time. I didn't intend for it to be the point of my post. Nuff said. I suppose I should have had a topo with me for that trip, but I didn't. I had the Moab guide book, which was helpful.

As for not putting anything in front of the air bag, thank you for that reminder. I was one of the members here that pointed that out several years ago, when someone suggested that location.

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