Unresolved Star Case, Now What?

[Ratbert]

My 2018 !eans a little to the right too. It bugged the hell out of me, at first. But, I just have to repeat: "It's a Jeep Thing".

Are you thinking that putting up with shoddy quality somehow helps?

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[DaltonGang]

Are you thinking that putting up with shoddy quality somehow helps?

I think sooner or later, when you own a Jeep, you have to deal with the reality of their lack of workmanship and quality control. In the meantime, when you have a warranty, get everything fixed, as soon as possible.
There should be a 12 Step program for Wrangler owners, to help them adjust to long term ownership.
I copied this, and changed a few words to fit Jeep Wrangler ownership.

1. We admitted we were powerless over Jeeps quality Control-that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives, and our Jeeps over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. And what we expect of our Jeeps.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our Jeeps.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of Stellantis.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our Jeeps shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Because we incessantly complain online about our Jeeps.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it, online, in a timely respectful manner.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Because only a higher power, or a new company with scruples could correct all that is wrong with Jeep.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to Jeep Owners and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

 

[flyer92]

My 2018 !eans a little to the right too. It bugged the hell out of me, at first. But, I just have to repeat: "It's a Jeep Thing".



Don't take offense when someone asks for pics. Old saying on forums everywhere: " Pics, or it don't exist".

Thanks and totally understand. Requests for pics don't offend me at all, and I often ask for them as well. In this case, I'm just not able to provide any because the Jeep is at the dealership. Even if I could take a photo, it is difficult to show what a 1/2-inch lean actually looks like in real life. I'm sure you can relate, since your JL has it too. And if it turns out that I have to live with the lean, then so be it. Definitely not the end of the world.

 

[Jeep Wick]

I can't provide photos at the moment because the Jeep is still at the dealership. As stated previously, I've driven almost every Jeep model produced since the 1940's and never experienced this issue. Especially with a modern vehicle, a defective factory suspension should not be a fact of life, and we shouldn't be duped into accepting it as yet another "Jeep thing." Owners of other vehicles don't accept crappy workmanship, so why should we?

I'm just saying it's normal for the driver side to sit lower, because that's where the weight usually is. This is not uncommon or crappy quality, it's simply settled suspension. I put stiffer springs on my last Jeep for towing, I took measurements and it was different side to side. I don't remember if it was 1/2" but whatever it was I didn't consider it unusual. I think your OCD is getting the best of you.

 

[Remorseless]

This reads like the standard JK/JL lean due to the weight of the gas tank and skid all being on the passenger side. Was a big thing when the JK launched back in the day, after they moved the tank from behind the rear axle with the TJ to the passenger side. My JK and JL both leaned just a little whether loaded or unloaded, stock or lifted.

 

[whitechocolate]

This reads like the standard JK/JL lean due to the weight of the gas tank and skid all being on the passenger side. Was a big thing when the JK launched back in the day, after they moved the tank from behind the rear axle with the TJ to the passenger side. My JK and JL both leaned just a little whether loaded or unloaded, stock or lifted.

Caster for fucks sakes.. it's always caster

 

[flyer92]

I'm just saying it's normal for the driver side to sit lower, because that's where the weight usually is. This is not uncommon or crappy quality, it's simply settled suspension. I put stiffer springs on my last Jeep for towing, I took measurements and it was different side to side. I don't remember if it was 1/2" but whatever it was I didn't consider it unusual. I think your OCD is getting the best of you.

I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree that it would make a little more sense if the driver side was sagging, but it's actually on the passenger side.

Perhaps you could chalk this up to a case of OCD, but it's clearly noticeable in person and will be a liability when I eventually sell the vehicle. Furthermore, Stellantis acknowledges that it is a cosmetic defect from the factory and is still covered by warranty. Given all the money they suck out of us, why should we not hold them responsible for it? Just doesn't make sense to let it go as yet another "Jeep thing" and keep supporting shoddy workmanship and QA.

Funny that we never hear "it's a Toyota thing," "Chevy thing," "Mercedes thing," etc. Pretty sure those owners wouldn't just sit back and accept this level of quality. Why should we?

 

[Jeep Wick]

I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree that it would make a little more sense if the driver side was sagging, but it's actually on the passenger side.

Perhaps you could chalk this up to a case of OCD, but it's clearly noticeable in person and will be a liability when I eventually sell the vehicle. Furthermore, Stellantis acknowledges that it is a cosmetic defect from the factory and is still covered by warranty. Given all the money they suck out of us, why should we not hold them responsible for it? Just doesn't make sense to let it go as yet another "Jeep thing" and keep supporting shoddy workmanship and QA.

Funny that we never hear "it's a Toyota thing," "Chevy thing," "Mercedes thing," etc. Pretty sure those owners wouldn't just sit back and accept this level of quality. Why should we?

The gas tank is passenger side, does it change with fuel level?

 

[flyer92]

This reads like the standard JK/JL lean due to the weight of the gas tank and skid all being on the passenger side. Was a big thing when the JK launched back in the day, after they moved the tank from behind the rear axle with the TJ to the passenger side. My JK and JL both leaned just a little whether loaded or unloaded, stock or lifted.

Thanks for the input. I have also heard a lot about this, but have yet to see it in any JL, whether new or used. My dealership and Stellantis do not recognize any such lean of this extent as "normal," and explained that no modern manufacturer would purposely design a vehicle to sit out of level. Just doesn't make sense, regardless of where the gas tank is located, where passengers sit, etc. Those weight and arm excursions are mitigated by the appropriate spring rates and suspension geometry so the vehicle sits level. It's just that simple, and is a major part of the engineering and design process for any vehicle.

 

[flyer92]

The gas tank is passenger side, does it change with fuel level?

Unfortunately, no. Whether completely full or on fumes, the discrepancy never changes...always 1/2" low on the front passenger side.

 

[Remorseless]

Thanks for the input. I have also heard a lot about this, but have yet to see it in any JL, whether new or used. My dealership and Stellantis do not recognize any such lean of this extent as "normal," and explained that no modern manufacturer would purposely design a vehicle to sit out of level. Just doesn't make sense, regardless of where the gas tank is located, where passengers sit, etc. Those weight and arm excursions are mitigated by the appropriate spring rates and suspension geometry so the vehicle sits level. It's just that simple, and is a major part of the engineering and design process for any vehicle.

Well good luck with it. Jeeps sitting out of level while stock have been a known thing for 17 years since the intro of the JK, so I guess apparently Jeep/Daimler-Chrysler/FCA/Stellantis all decided to ignore that "major part of the engineering and design process".

If you wanna measure and confirm though, the best measurement is from the dead center of the axle tube to the bottom lip of the coil spring bucket on the frame on all 4 corners. That's where you prove if it's in the suspension or not, and if yes, exactly where. A good note to keep in mind though - the Sport's suspension is notably softer than the Rubi's suspension, but the vehicle weight distribution is largely the same for sprung weight. These softer springs will exacerbate an unaccounted for lean vs a Rubi.

Forgot to add - the weight of the spare also rests on the passenger side of the vehicle due to the hinge design and how it connects back down into the body. So it's gas tank + gas tank skid + spare leaning on the suspension on that side.

Some more threads on this though:

High-Tide Front lean, who has it? | Jeep Wrangler Forums (JL / JLU) -- Rubicon, 4xe, 392, Sahara, Sport - JLwranglerforums.com

JL Lean | Jeep Wrangler Forums (JL / JLU) -- Rubicon, 4xe, 392, Sahara, Sport - JLwranglerforums.com

The JL Lean | Jeep Wrangler Forums (JL / JLU) -- Rubicon, 4xe, 392, Sahara, Sport - JLwranglerforums.com

Stock JLUR passenger side lower than drivers side, rear is equal | Jeep Wrangler Forums (JL / JLU) -- Rubicon, 4xe, 392, Sahara, Sport - JLwranglerforums.com

 

[Ratbert]

I think sooner or later, when you own a Jeep, you have to deal with the reality of their lack of workmanship and quality control. In the meantime, when you have a warranty, get everything fixed, as soon as possible.
There should be a 12 Step program for Wrangler owners, to help them adjust to long term ownership.
I copied this, and changed a few words to fit Jeep Wrangler ownership.

1. We admitted we were powerless over Jeeps quality Control-that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives, and our Jeeps over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. And what we expect of our Jeeps.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our Jeeps.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of Stellantis.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our Jeeps shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Because we incessantly complain online about our Jeeps.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it, online, in a timely respectful manner.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Because only a higher power, or a new company with scruples could correct all that is wrong with Jeep.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to Jeep Owners and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

To summarize: Our prayers to Stellantis will go unanswered, so we're destined to put up with their shoddy quality.

Fuck that.

 

[Deleted User 38384]

I think sooner or later, when you own a Jeep, you have to deal with the reality of their lack of workmanship and quality control. In the meantime, when you have a warranty, get everything fixed, as soon as possible.
There should be a 12 Step program for Wrangler owners, to help them adjust to long term ownership.
I copied this, and changed a few words to fit Jeep Wrangler ownership.

1. We admitted we were powerless over Jeeps quality Control-that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives, and our Jeeps over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. And what we expect of our Jeeps.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our Jeeps.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of Stellantis.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our Jeeps shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Because we incessantly complain online about our Jeeps.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it, online, in a timely respectful manner.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Because only a higher power, or a new company with scruples could correct all that is wrong with Jeep.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to Jeep Owners and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

 

[flyer92]

Well good luck with it. Jeeps sitting out of level while stock have been a known thing for 17 years since the intro of the JK, so I guess apparently Jeep/Daimler-Chrysler/FCA/Stellantis all decided to ignore that "major part of the engineering and design process".

If you wanna measure and confirm though, the best measurement is from the dead center of the axle tube to the bottom lip of the coil spring bucket on the frame on all 4 corners. That's where you prove if it's in the suspension or not, and if yes, exactly where. A good note to keep in mind though - the Sport's suspension is notably softer than the Rubi's suspension, but the vehicle weight distribution is largely the same for sprung weight. These softer springs will exacerbate an unaccounted for lean vs a Rubi.

Forgot to add - the weight of the spare also rests on the passenger side of the vehicle due to the hinge design and how it connects back down into the body. So it's gas tank + gas tank skid + spare leaning on the suspension on that side.

Some more threads on this though:

High-Tide Front lean, who has it? | Jeep Wrangler Forums (JL / JLU) -- Rubicon, 4xe, 392, Sahara, Sport - JLwranglerforums.com

JL Lean | Jeep Wrangler Forums (JL / JLU) -- Rubicon, 4xe, 392, Sahara, Sport - JLwranglerforums.com

The JL Lean | Jeep Wrangler Forums (JL / JLU) -- Rubicon, 4xe, 392, Sahara, Sport - JLwranglerforums.com

Stock JLUR passenger side lower than drivers side, rear is equal | Jeep Wrangler Forums (JL / JLU) -- Rubicon, 4xe, 392, Sahara, Sport - JLwranglerforums.com

Thanks for the clarification on measurement locations, but we're unfortunately well beyond that, as the dealership has measured everything, every which way, including by laser (and more than once). Only thing they can come up with, is that the rear driver's side is 3mm higher than it should be, which apparently translates to a 1/2-inch sag on the opposite corner (front passenger). That said, they cannot figure out what is actually causing the 3mm discrepancy. Seems odd that they can tell me what the discrepancy is, but can't tell me where it is.

 

[Remorseless]

Thanks for the clarification on measurement locations, but we're unfortunately well beyond that, as the dealership has measured everything, every which way, including by laser (and more than once). Only thing they can come up with, is that the rear driver's side is 3mm higher than it should be, which apparently translates to a 1/2-inch sag on the opposite corner (front passenger). That said, they cannot figure out what is actually causing the 3mm discrepancy. Seems odd that they can tell me what the discrepancy is, but can't tell me where it is.

3mm is only, roughly, a tenth of an inch. A 3mm height increase should not force the passenger side down half an inch (12mm). If anything, I'd suspect the opposite - the passenger suspension being loaded more heavily has unloaded weight from the driver's side suspension and has resulted in the 3mm increased height as the spring is dealing with less weight. It's a common thing that happens with off road vehicles as folks armor them up.

As an example, if you stick a heavy object such as a winch and steel bumper in front of the front axle, it compresses the front suspension slightly, but the front coil buckets also act as a "squishy" fulcrum and the winch/bumper act as the force applied to end of the frame, which acts as a lever, and it actually unloads the rear suspension just a bit. Also basically the same thing as tongue weight from a trailer causing the front end to unload and go light. Way more plausible, IMO, than a 3mm higher driver's side causing a 12mm dip on the passenger side.

Anyway, that would serve to plausibly explain the 3mm higher driver's side, but the question of why the passenger side is about half an inch low would still remain. IMO, it's likely a spring rate thing that Jeep just doesn't care about. I know you said the dealership swapped springs out - did they swap out just like for like (your old Sport springs for new Sport springs) or did they ever do a swap to Rubi springs? Rubi springs have a different (higher) spring rate and, if the dealership's willing, may be a good test while you wait on Stellantis. If there's a difference in the amount of sag with takeoff Rubi springs, then it would be tied to spring rate and not something like a bent or out-of-spec coil bucket. If the Rubi springs, with their higher spring rate, demonstrate the exact same amount of sag on the passenger side, then it's likely that you've got something out of spec between the axle and frame side coil perches.

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