TurtleBack Expedition purchasing experience/review

[NCJL]

The suspension discoveries and repairs. 5/23 thru 7/29ish.
The first event referenced in post #16 actually happened on 5/23. This was the trip to verify rewire good. I had tested rewire before leaving on the trip. While camping I was able to run a 2 slice toaster and hot air popcorn popper simultaneously with inverter. The system worked as it should. The inverter after a minute or so shut down due to too much load, to protect itself. This was the opposite of what TB had installed. TB install would shut down due to under voltage from the batteries with just the toaster. Upgrading the wire size (voltage drop fix) and discharging from batteries equally.
I’ll include a pic of the battery monitor showing 200 plus amps of power being Drawn from battery for this test. In the TB installed system a 150amp main switch powered everything. I documented this for the TB owner. He didn’t think the inverter could ever draw this much power. Even though the installation instructions said so.
The electrical system performed as it should.

We returned home approximately 5/29. After unpacking and settling in the wife sat me down for a conversation. We had not discussed the event when the trailer rocked side to side ready to roll over on the freeway. That time was now! She bluntly said. I will not go camping with this trailer ever again. Fix it or sell it. No more life threatening events.

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[NCJL]

5/23 thru 7/29. Suspension. This turned into a mountain of repairs. We had a lot of COVID free time and did not go camping once during this time. This time was spent researching, communicating, meeting new people and rebuilding the suspension system to help correct suspension related issues issues.
I assembled an excellent team for information gathering. The local BigTex dealer, metal fab shop, mobile welder and Timbren suspension. The Metal Fab shop was experienced in the building and modifying of trailers. The Mobile welder was also experienced with trailer modification. I was fortunate. I found over 100years of trailer manufacturing/Modifying within a mile of my house! Something to be positive about. I’m a SoCal transplant to the NorCal area of only a few years. I had plenty of resources in SoCal. The trailer required local resources.
I spent days literally staring at the trailer going through everything trying to figure out what needed to be done to correct the latest event.
The conclusions.
Water weight was an issue. The water tank was 42 gallons plus the 6 gallon hot water heater. About 400lbs. This weight was also shifted to the passenger side of trailer. The tank did not have any baffles to keep water from moving side to side.
Tongue weight was an issue. General rule is 10% plus/minus depending on what you have. This being an off-road trailer with a high center of gravity, short wheel base and a silly suspension lift installed needed more than normal. 15% TW became the goal. Lots more factors should be included, however that should be the starting point. I was estimating the TB setup might be 10% possible less.
Weight distribution was made a priority.

The ICON suspension. The WMS was too narrow. The trailer had the peg leg look. A guy that went to the gym and skipped all leg days.
The suspension frame was beefier than the actual trailer frame. The way the frames were bolted together made no sense. 20gauge metal welded to the suspension frame that sandwiched the trailer frame with 8-3/8 bolts. TB did use sleeves thru the trailer frame, however the sleeves were not welded to the frame and were not cut to the same width as the frame. The tubing used was just that tubing. Maybe a 3/16 wall thick. Using sleeves through the frame is a common practice with long arm suspension upgrades in the 4x4 world. The difference is they are normally welded and of DOM heavy wall type product.
When removing the Icon system a few bolt through locations had already began to egg. Showing signs of wobble. The suspension had about 1500 miles on it. We put about 1200 miles on the TB installed Timbren before TB exchanged.

The trailer frame. The trailer frame did not have any structural cross members from side to side except the front and rear. No cross member in the middle, the axle area. The frame did have slats installed on top for mounting the cargo box and accessories too. These slates were not that structural strong. Tac welded in some spots for position only.
The way the two frames were joined would actually add stress to the trailer frame. It was like adding leverage to the frame forcing it too twist.
With the above information, I encourage everyone with this in mind to go back and look at pics that show the frame attachments. This can be seen with the tire rubbing issue and the ICON by itself. The same bolts and bolt locations are used between the 2 different frames TB installed.

TBC…

 

[NCJL]

I think typing this is more exhausting than the actual rework! Not really.
When looking at the pics. Please pay attention to the stance of the trailer. How close the tires are to the outer edge. Up to this point, pics show 2 different WMS widths. Both installed by TB.
The tire size has never changed. Same in the first pic until the last pic you will see. Currently still on the same size tires. Notice the difference in space between fender and tire.
I also contacted ICON for assistance. They just referred me back to TB. I think the only thing ICON in the ICON suspension is the Shock. The coil had a turtle stamped on it. The frame was manufactured by TB according to TB.
I asked TB during this time how they came up with what was listed on the sticker in regards to trailer weight and cargo carrying capacity. This conversation was directly with the owner. I was told that I could not go by the sticker. The computer just prints them out. He got Me on this one. I thought TB could not shock me anymore. WOW I was wrong shocked again! I asked what rules and regulations they used to determine the actual weights listed. He explained that the frame and boxes was the weight and everything else was an accessory to be included as cargo weight. He said my trailer was going to be a heavy one because I had all the accessories which included the following: Kitchen Pantry, 2 batteries, battery charger, inverter, hot water heater, tire carrier, spare tire, propane tanks, marine grade cabinets plus interior paneling, tent rack, tent and fridge with slider. Maybe more. The list went a little back and forth. My trailer was heavy. At this same time I inquired about the different coil spring locations on the ICON. He said you move them back and forth depending on weight. I asked what weights we were talking about. The ICON had 3 different locations for the coil spring to sit. I was asking for clarification as to the actual weight each position was designed for. He didn’t know. I also asked about TW. He didn’t know. I also asked how much weight the tent rack was rated for. He didn’t know. And so on.
I presented to him during this conversation DOT/NHSTA information on how the weights of the should be listed by the manufacturer. He had no knowledge of. I asked him to look into it and let me know what he had found. If what I presented was wrong. He never has corrected the info I provided.
What I presented him with was info shared with me by my Team of experience. It was represented to me to be the actual rules for manufacturers of utility trailers. The rules are governed by DOT. I have actually read the section. Basically it says the following in reference to utility trailer manufacturers.
The weight of the trailer shall be figured with all bolt on available accessories whether installed or not. The cargo carrying capacity is the difference between axle weight rating and this #. The same applies to automobile manufacturers. RV manufacturers are a little different. I asked him if TB was working under an exception to this rule. He didn’t know.
I encourage everyone to ask these questions. I’m not an expert. The rules are very hard to understand. There are exceptions to every rule.
An expert told/showed me this information. I then asked TB, who should be an expert on this subject. He didn’t know.

Wheel spacers. I asked 3 hub/wheel manufacturers about the use of wheel spacers. The basic answers were. We do not test or rate with wheel spacers, not part of the installation instructions it is not approved and so on.
TBC…

 

[NCJL]

I started communicating with Timbren. I always wanted the Timbren set up. I liked the ground clearance it provided and was the only suspension designed for the off-road. However the TB version did not work.
I never told Timbren or anyone else what brand of trailer I had.
I started by reading all I could on there website. I discovered they had 2 different versions for the 3500lbs rating. One for trailers that won’t see the dirt and another one for trailers that will see the dirt. Guess which one TB uses? Yep the one not designed for the dirt! The dirt one is 3500HD. Designed for off-road trailers and off-road wide tires.
TB never offered this info. I verified it by looking up the part # shown in the tire rubbing picture.
I called TB owner confused. He verified what I had found. He further clarified that TB only uses the not for dirt version because the HD only comes in 6/8 lug options. The RV style comes in 4/5 lug options which they can then use wheel spacers/adapters to match the customer tow vehicle with. It was simple and easier for them. Once again I was shocked.

With all my information I called Timbren. It was so nice to talk to someone that new what they sold. Quick, direct answers with a personal touch. I explained what I had. An off-road trailer they was going to weight about 3500lbs. I had not weighed the trailer it yet. Maybe a little more. The 3500HD was the choice. At this time Timbren did not sell direct. I purchased through Summit Racing because they had some items in stock and only a 2 week wait for the balance. I confirmed with Timbren that I could follow the install instructions on the website. I was going to make substantial changes to the frame to install. It needed to be perfect. Timbren also advised that do to the weight of the trailer I may need to upgrade the suspension bushing that came standard. They said install it, drive it and let us know. We will overnight a stiffer bushing if needed. Free of charge. They told what to look for to indicate if a stiffer bushing was needed.
It was so nice working with Timbren. A manufacturer that knew.

 

[NCJL]

I also had a smaller custom made water tank built to lower the overall weight and center between tires. This tank also had baffles installed.
Pics.

 

[NCJL]

More pics. Notice the stance tire distance from fender. No rubbing.
Lowered the overall height by 4” to 72”.
TB height was originally 85” same tire size.

 

[NCJL]

Suspension replacement explained.
The idea was to increase WMS. I did this by using the correct TimBren 3500HD suspension. Finish WMS 67” plus. Followed Timbren instructions.
Strengthen the trailer frame to keep from flexing. I did this by following Timbren instructions. I added cross members across sides to side from front to back.
I also tied the outer 2 frame rails to the center front to rear hitch tube.
The 2x3x250 wall tube installed from Timbren axle to Timbren axle was optional. It was optional because I added all the cross supports. I chose to do both.
The smaller sleeves that can be seen in the pics are the ones TB used. I repurposed them. I welded them in and tapped them to 7/16 for aluminum spacer positioning.
The bolt size increased from TB installed 3/8 to Timbren recommended 5/8. Instead of 8 bolts total Timbren instructions called for 10 bolt locations.
Everything was welded. The pics showing bolts in the cross member was for testing only. Once test drive was complete it was welded.
Lower the overall height of trailer. Reduced by 4”.
This took a lot of time to set up. I spent a week laying everything out before drilling holes in the frame. Strings, lasers, bathroom scale and so on. I wanted the tire centered in the opening however TW was more important. I set up the trailer without an axle, probably 15 times to verify the best place to the axle. Doing all this I discovered something. Back to the original tire rubbing issue. Only the driver side tire rubbed. I verified during this time the cargo box installed by TB was 3/16 off from center, side to side. Interesting.
The pics shown previously in the parking lot are of the first test drive. I was so happy. The trailer felt better within seconds of driving. Handling on the freeway was night and day better. The whole towing experience was vastly improved. No more worrying. Everything just felt right.

The TB ICON suspension weighed 300lbs. The newly installed Timbren was about 200lbs. Added steel was about 50lbs.
Another plus.

I could now start the fine tuning of weight distribution.

Next. Tire carrier.

 

[NCJL]

I installed the solar panels on the IKAMPER next. This was fun because this was something I wanted to do. I ended up with 3 x 100 watt Zamp panels. Zamp is another company that is good to work with.
Briefly. IKR! This added about 60lbs to the roof of the tent. I increased the strength of the hinge side of the tent. I used 3M industrial structural adhesive for this. I did not drill any holes on the top. Only added holes was the reinforce the hinge. Extra bolts and 3m. The odd thing about the installation was I basically doubled the weight on the top, however the factory gas struts still worked fine. I was expecting to replace the struts with more force. Not needed. IKampers are built pretty tuff.

The tire carrier. I have mentioned throughout this thread concerns regarding the TB tire carrier.
The fix. Add welded steel plates to strengthen the corners where TC attaches and latch’s.
Add welded steel tube to the TC frame.
Add aluminum plate to TC frame to help with sagging.
Reconfigure TB welded bumper to allow for bottom mount hi lift jack.
Move tire carrier out 1” to allow for redesigned propane tank system.
Reinforce spindle and latch side. I used an actual tie carrier latch. What an idea. Change spindle to 6 lug from 5 lug. Add welded reinforcement platen on TC frame at hub mount. Used grade 8 hardware to attach TC frame to spindle.
Added upper latch side anti vibration support.
Added 2 NATO Gerry cans

I did all this to also help with weight distribution. I wasn’t adding trailer weight only adding a new place to store items.
The added steel did add about 40lbs to the trailer frame.

The TB propane tanks were kinda a pain. 2 different sizes. They were not interchangeable between sides. I could only drive with them in the regular position. The 2 new tanks matched. Removing and installing was much easier.

 

[NCJL]

Pics. Oh. I also relocated the turtle from TC to the top of nose cone box with an aluminum skid underneath. MaxTraxx added to the side of nose cone. Weight distribution and added protection to side of nose box. The ring around the tire is a fire ring.
The total weight on tire carrier is about 250lbs. Very happy with the results. No sagging, rattling nothing but smooth.

 

[NCJL]

The previous post gets the ownership too Thanksgiving. 11/20.
In January I added a 4th battery to the system. I needed something to help with TW. I needed something to replace the 1000watt generator I no longer needed to carry. Solar was providing good battery charge. I also installed a REDARC battery to battery charger that does an excellent job of charging the trailer batteries while driving. I no longer need to plug my trailer in. The 120volt charger is being removed from the system.
I have 280lbs of battery in the nose box. I know I’ve heavily modified the trailer. But not enough to need that much additional weight over what TB sold me.
TB installed 2 batteries. I added 2 totaling 4. The floor space used with 4 is still less than TB took up with 2!
My last attempt to communicate with TB was an email sent 11/20. I asked for an update with the 3rd party Audit and any improvements that had been made. No reply.
Ive spent about $6k out of pocket repairing/modifying trailer due to specific TB issues. Guessing about 200 hours of labor. I did all the modifying in a single car garage that is over a hundred years old!
If TB understood, could comprehended and install per manufacturer installation instructions none of this would have happened. It would have cost less for TB to do it right the first time.

I have about $50k in My TB trailer. Plus labor cost redo

Please ask any questions. I need to know someone read this!

I would also be open to discussing or showing anyone my trailer in the area. Just PM me.

What an experience. Should all be better going forward.

 

[NCJL]

A few clarifications.
Timbren did recommend a bushing change due to weight. The signs that indicated this was the bushing touching the mounting bolts for the hub assembly while resting. They overnighted the replacement for free. They actually shipped everything overnight free of charge. The ride didn’t really change. It lifted the trailer about a 1/4”. Timbren said the reason for change was mostly for longevity.

The unsprung weight comparison. The Timbren system as designed by Timbren only adds a few pounds above the bushing (coil). The TB system adds much more of the suspension system weight above the coil (bushing). This is just an added plus to design. No matter what all the weight is included when figuring trailer weight. This just helps with weight distribution.

I Previously posted about TB owner shipping me a new battery charger. He did, however it was incorrect for my application. He figured out that it was wrong on his own. I was shocked! He called me before I received it, asking me to return it. I told him I would and not to worry about finding the correct one. I knew TB wouldn’t get it right. Funny thing is about 3 weeks later he brought it up. When you gonna return the charger? The charger cost about $125. Really. I sent it back.

Dealing with TB was comparable to working with a group of mature teenagers.

The trailer currently weights about 4,000lbs. Fully loaded.

 

[NCJL]

Pics from the most recent trip. 7/4/21.
Shaver Lake CA. Dinkey Creek Area.
My Heavily Modified turtleback expedition trailer.

 

[Jeff1]

Do you know if there were design/build changes when Turtleback was sold? I thought the original owner had a good reputation for quality trailers.

I didn't know about the two versions of timbren, looks like most places use the on road version due to the popular lug patterns but advertise them as an off road suspensions due to no axle.

You're a patient person to have dealt with all this without sending it back and demanding your money back. I sold my trailer within a few months due to lack of quality/quality control and basically the owner telling me that's their build quality and nothing is wrong, should of looked at one before you bought it. And what he did admit to being a problem only wanting to pay someone $30hr to fix. Most shops up here are $100+ and hour.

 

[NCJL]

Do you know if there were design/build changes when Turtleback was sold? I thought the original owner had a good reputation for quality trailers.

I didn't know about the two versions of timbren, looks like most places use the on road version due to the popular lug patterns but advertise them as an off road suspensions due to no axle.


You're a patient person to have dealt with all this without sending it back and demanding your money back. I sold my trailer within a few months due to lack of quality/quality control and basically the owner telling me that's their build quality and nothing is wrong, should of looked at one before you bought it. And what he did admit to being a problem only wanting to pay someone $30hr to fix. Most shops up here are $100+ and hour.

I do not know of any design changes. I have my suspicions. Agree that TB had a better reputation before ownership changed.

The Timbren off-road version has the HD in the part #. After I learned this I checked other manufacturers. All listed the HD version.

I was never going to get my money back without a legal fight. If I did get money back I figured the lawyer would cost me 5k plus. If a local shop would have fixed my trailer I would guess 25k. I had the time and resources to do all the labor. Otherwise this would be a different story.

 

[SlowPoke21]

Like someone said above, you are a very patient person. Wow. I can see having issues with a $10k trailer. But this thing? That’s at a premium…

sorry man.

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