TurtleBack Expedition purchasing experience/review

[NCJL]

4/29 thru 5/4. Camping trip to the Dinkey Creek/Shaver Lake, CA area. We needed a good trip! We enjoyed the time, however 2 major discoveries happened.

Edit: I got my timeframe off. This event actually happened on our next trip. End of May.
The first event. While driving on a freeway to freeway transition ramp. The trailer reacted to a normal, tiny steering wheel correction with a back and forth motion like a teeter totter with bounce. Not a swaying motion. I did not see a trailer tire leave the ground, however I think it happened. No crash. I stayed calm and drove thru it. Being the first real trip starting from home with all of our gear loaded. I was driving very cautious from the start. I just kept driving, continuing the trip.
The transition ramp was a long 90 ramp. No reduction in speed type ramp. Normal driving when not towing would be whatever the car in front would allow.
My speed was approximately 55mph with trailer.
This moment was not discussed until we arrived home, 5/4.

TBC….

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[NCJL]

….4/29 thru 5/4 continued.
The second event. During this time frame.
This was the first time towing with actual real world conditions. Water in the tanks, propane tanks filled. FridgeFreeze installed and so on.
We started using the varies electrical systems for the first time. We had purchased a mobile 140watt solar panel and 1000 watt generator to charge batteries as needed.
A few days into the trip I started noticing that with the generator powering the battery charger not much improvement was being recognized by the battery monitor or solar charge controller. I researched this discovering that the battery charger was only a 6amp 1 Battery charger. TB installed the charger and 2 batteries.
We started/tried to use the inverter for the first time. The inverter would shut down showing a trouble code. It would later be verified as a low voltage shut off to protect the inverter when input voltage was too low.
The battery monitor did not seem to be identifying the in and outs properly or at all.
I contacted TB as soon as cell service allowed on my way home. TB expressed embarrassment and apologized for my troubles. Would get back to me on this. During the drive home text and phone conversation continued. This was with the salesman I had worked the entire time. He was happy to report at one time. The monitor just needed to be reflashed/reset a normal thing in the beginning. The other items where being addressed by the owner. After returning home TB contacted me saying that the owner was going to stand by the electrical system as installed. I was on my own. I was shocked!! I asked this messenger, for the TB owner, to tell the owner this “remember this moment”. He said he would and apologized.
Later in the day, the owner of TB called me stating that a new battery charger was going to be shipped to me. The original battery charger installed was ok per the manufacturer, however the new one was better. He expressed this like he was doing me a favor. He stated the inverter was installed per manufacturer and that they had never had an issue with installation before. I should check with inverter manufacturer for a solution. He did not address battery monitor. Shocked! And then Shocked again. My response was ok.
I started my research into the electrical system.

TBC…..

 

[NCJL]

5/4 thru 5/7. Pics showing TB original install.

 

[NCJL]

I just did an Edit to post #16. With all the issues. I’m trying my best to get the timeframe correct. I’m using my photos to assist. The electrical and suspension repair photos only had a few pics of actual camping separating them. My mistake! Both events happened as described. Just the timing is off.
I should also at this time share what I do.
Im an electrician by trade, with 35 years experience installing all types of electrical systems in the building industry. I have been formally trained with over 4000 hours of in class training plus 2000 hours of continuing education. For the last 25 plus years I have been in a position of responsibility. I work side by side with electrical, mechanical and structural engineers to build stuff on a regular basis. I have built everything from houses to high rises, heavy industrial, manufacturing facilities. Data centers, and wind farms. I have worked in many states. I have been state certified as required in states that I have worked. I hold many specific certifications related to electrical installation including 5KV and 34.5KV splicing.
I may know a thing or two about installing electrical systems.
That said. I have never wired or rewired a off-road trailer.
Im not perfect I make mistakes. I learn from mistakes. I find it is always best to follow manufacturer instructions and drawings when available. Ask questions as needed.

Further more I have been around the off-road community for the last 25 years. I have towed many different combinations of trailers. From car haulers to specialized utility to cargo to RV type to off-road trailers.
I have customized many Jeep type vehicles from dealer lot to trailer Queen.
I have been fortunate to afford and do all these things with family and friends.
Blah Blah I have some experience.
Next event, Trailer wiring.
TBC….

 

[NCJL]

5/5 thru 5/23. Rewire of TB installed 12volt systems.
Bullet points of what needed to be addressed.
120 volt battery charger to small, not wired correctly.
Solar controller not wired properly.
Inverter installed wrong in every way.
Batteries (2) not wired or mounted correctly.
Cable/wire sizing not proper for load or voltage drop.
Fuse sizing corrected as needed for load.
Battery monitor did not monitor.
Wiring throughout trailer needed reconfigured due to battery system being monitored by battery monitor.
And so on….

All rework was done per manufacturer installation instructions. The tricky part was integrating the different manufacturers into one complete system independently of the tow vehicle 12 volt system.

What TB installed did not have an immediate safety concern. The system would under perform. Inverter would shut off to protect itself. The battery charger was so small it was basically a trickle charger.
The long term impacts however could be dangerous. Batteries floating inside an enclosure sitting on top of screw heads. Charging and discharging batteries not equally can cause batteries to overheat. Shorten their lifespan. This can also play havoc with charges and monitors.

 

[NCJL]

Pics of rewire.

 

[NCJL]

12volt system rewire explanation.
The battery monitor is probably the hardest to explain. The idea. Monitor the power of a battery, both in and out energy of the battery so the user knows the status of the battery. Will I know if the batteries have sufficient stored energy to power my needs thru the night or day. To do this the wiring must be specific to the battery being monitored. No sharing of positive or negative energy between sources. A tow vehicle is a possible separate energy source. Tow vehicle energy must be separate of the battery being monitored.

Also, to monitor a battery (using the TB installed battery Monitor) the return energy (negative of the battery being monitored) must be wired to only go thru a Shunt (part of the Monitor).

Battery charging. A general rule is. Battery chargers should charge at a rate of 20% of the total AmpHour of the battery. TB installed 210AH of batteries with a 6AH Battery Charger.
Solar Chargers are sized by the available solar watts and battery type.

Power taken from a battery or put back in a battery should be done equally across batteries. Different wire methods are used depending on the # of batteries installed. Doing this extends the life of the batteries and is recommended by charger and battery manufacturer. To achieve this, equal wire lengths between battery and energy sources (in or out) must be done. This can be viewed in the pictures of my rewire. I wired the batteries with equal lengths wire to a common point.

Wire sizing and fuses. Wire size should be determined by load and length of wire installed for voltage drop. This is very important in a 12volt system.
Fuse size is selected based on load of the item powered and wire size used to feed said item. The selection of fuse size is done to protect what is being powered and to prevent wiring from carrying more energy than it can safely provide.

TBC

 

[NCJL]

Continuing 12volt rewire explanation. The TB installed return/negative path was attached to the trailer frame at many points throughout the trailer. This included trailer battery power and tow vehicle battery powered items. For example the tow vehicle provides power for the brake lights, running lights and trailer brakes. The trailer battery, (the one that is being monitored) provides power trailer house lights water pump FridgeFreeze and so on. Without a Battery monitor this would be ok. I paid extra for a battery monitor to be installed. With a battery monitored installed the return/negative path cannot share the frame. TB attached the negative from tow vehicle and trailer batteries to the frame be fore the shunt strip. The shunt trip was grounded to the trailer frame on both sides (battery and load). This was not done directly at the shunt. I discovered this by following the wiring attached directly to the shunt. The battery side of shunt went to battery negative. As previously stated, the battery negative was tied directly to the frame. I followed the load side wires of the shunt to discover a centrally located negative distribution bar. Located above water tank. This location also had a trailer frame negative attachment point. Doing this created a pathway for negative voltage to go around the shunt.

The TB installed inverter was not installed in a proper orientation to allow for heat dissipation per install instructions. The inverter is also not sealed.
Per installation instructions all items installed within the battery enclosure (the nose cone) must be sealed. I have not replaced the inverter yet. TB said that the batteries installed are sealed therefore not a requirement. I asked for clarification on this to verify. I have not received this clarification.

 

[NCJL]

Continuing.
My understanding of the rules regarding sealed or not sealed items within a battery enclosure.
The battery installation box that TB installed is not sealed. The battery within this enclosure is sealed. The battery is allowed to move, shift, bounce and so on within this enclosure box. Batteries installed in this manner have the potential to crack/leak creating a dangerous problem.
Due to the above described installation.
The nose cone trailer box is the battery box.
Electrical items that spark must be sealed when installed within a battery enclosure.
I do not think the rules for this change when using a sealed battery.
I went to other off-road trailer Manufacturers website’s to see what others did. I could see in a few pictures that the batteries were installed in a separate, specific sealed box.

 

[NCJL]

Pics for reference.
U bolts used to attach tire carrier.
Latch and cane pin TB installed on tire carrier
Wheel spacer originally installed by TB.
The battery charger installed by TB.
Battery charger cable stamped with attach to only one battery.
Wire. The smaller is TB. The larger is manufacture recommended. What I used.
The hub TB installed with tire carrier.

 

[NCJL]

The communication with TB the first 43 days of ownership.
We (my wife and I)new from the day we picked up the trailer we made a mistake purchasing a TB trailer. Just not how big!
As previously stated. We left TB and retuned a few hours later to document concerns. We inspected the trailer all opened up in the hotel parking lot. At this time the wheel spacers with the tire so close to the frame was the major concern.
We discussed our options. We live in Northern California, TB is in Chandler, legally we have to give them a chance to correct and so on. We guessed it would cost us $5k out of pocket to return the trailer and fight to get our money back, $35k. I thought $5k would cover the cost for us to repair the trailer. We chose to keep the trailer and work with TB to get items corrected. We had no idea how many corrections would be needed. This decision was made at the hotel before returning to a closed TB shop.
Then the discoveries started as previously posted.
All communication between me and TB was calm. No one was rude. No yelling or anything like that.
The communication was with the salesman in the beginning and switched to directly with the owner during the rewire. The Owner did call about changing out the suspension to the ICON but that was it until the rewire.
The owner explained that he had just purchased the company and was unaware of any manufacturing or assembly issues. The company was in the process of getting the new store front/assembly building put together and money was tight.
We talked, texted and communicated through email. TB was always more open on the phone.
As time went on the TB response was we are in the process of making improvements. The owner stated that he was in the process of having a 3rd party company audit the trailer building process.
We both agreed that a better trailer was the best outcome for all.
I shared every item I discovered, in detail as shown in my previous post. This sharing continued through the suspension replacement. The next chapter!
TB sent me a check for $2k to help cover my cost for the rewire. I spent about $1600 out of pocket. I estimated my labor hours at 40. TB said that if the company did better they would send me more money. I have not received any more money.
Me and TB agreed to keep each other in the loop in regards to improvements. I wanted to help. I did not want anyone to have my experience. My communication was all about TB becoming better and the TB owner agreed. I explained that I thought the trailer they sold me could cause death or serious injury. Getting my money back was not my top concern. A better safer trailer was!

I should also say. I never had a conversation with a TB person that could comprehend what was being talked about. when the conversation was something technical. Like how much the trailer weights, the wire is too small for the load the inverter requires, is the water system potable and so on.
Next will be the suspension discoveries.

 

[NCJL]

Pics of the ICON suspension after removing from the trailer.

 

[LittleDog]

@NCJL , I've been following since you started this post. I have great respect for the amount of experience and knowledge involved, in order to be successful in the trades.

At this point, I think that you could try a new tack, and contact that new owner as an independent contractor, and give them a quote for your services. You've experience and certifications aplenty, have located and corrected several weak design points, and have already started a new wiring scheme. Maybe bid against, or team up with their "third-party", as you're just giving them free man-hours at this point.

You'll have better luck getting your money back through invoices, or maybe you can figure out how to assign your particular trailer as a testing platform. Tax breaks for new companies are tastier than a disgruntled customer.

Managerial background here, and coming at them from the angle of, "I'll help you fix mistakes and reduce lawsuits", instead of seeming to cut into their bottom line, will help recoup your losses. Maybe drop a few hints on the more questionable/dangerous parts of their wiring diagram.

Best of luck. The trailer seems like it will be great, once you're done with it.(Please stay active on the forum, and maybe sometimes help dumbos like myself try to wire their jeeps)

 

[NCJL]

@NCJL

Thank You. You make valid points.
I did offer my services to the TB owner. I did this twice. Once during the rewire and again later after the suspension replacement. I offered this only as a “sharing of information” type thing. The first offer was for me to plan a camping trip That would include an area near their shop. I would spend some time visiting the shop and sharing my experience. I did this it would take a couple of days hanging out in the shop. I offered to do this for FREE no strings attached. TB owner had no interest. Possibly didn’t think I was real.
The second offer to visit their shop and exchange information did have a string attached. To make the trip worthwhile I wanted TB to buyback the ICON suspension. We actually negotiated a little bit over a couple of days. I wanted at least $1k. TB offered $600. TB said that the ICON only cost $800 to manufacture, why would they consider more $. In TB fashion, I was shocked again. TB did make it clear that if an agreement was made that the used suspension would only be used on an in house trailer build not for a customer. We never came to an agreement.

I have never pursued any of this with the expectation of being reimbursed. If TB stepped up to the plate and sent me money I would happily take it. I shared all my discoveries and cost to repair only as a reference.

My end game (with TB) has always been to help improve the trailer build. By helping TB I thought I would be helping future customer.

If it wasn’t for COVID, I would have handled this differently. I had lots and lots of free time. This allowed me to make most of the repairs myself. The only thing I didn’t do myself, was weld.

Since November (11/20) I can say I have a great off-road trailer. Actually it is a Bad… trailer. This creates a problem for me. I get asked all the time when adventuring with the trailer about the trailer. Based on the book with many chapters I’ve been typing here. You see my dilemma.

I have decided to call my trailer A Heavily Modified TurtleBack Trailer.
I think it applies.

Again I share my experience to help potential off-road trailer customers be educated with some knowledge to help with their purchase. If someone reads this in its entirety, many excellent questions for the manufacturer have been explained. At least I hope!

 

[NCJL]

I see I did something wrong with my reply in the previous post. Clicking something or whatever. Not sure how to fix it. Definitely don’t want to type that again! I’ll leave it alone.

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