Turtleback Expedition and JLU Towing Capacity?

[NCJL]

Just noticed I did not address the weight of trailer issue. Once again many emails and phone conversations with TB to address trailer weight. The weight listed on the VIN stamp says #1550 of cargo allowed. Meaning the trailer weight is #1950 leaving the factory. TB acknowledged after purchase that the trailer weight does not include any accessories including spare tire carrier, spare tire, additional weight of tires over stock, batteries, propane tank, propane, tent, roof rack, fridge, water and so on. TB believed that all these accessories should be acknowledged as cargo.

My TB trailer currently weighs #3900 plus with fluids topped off.

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[SuperNerdEE]

Just noticed I did not address the weight of trailer issue. Once again many emails and phone conversations with TB to address trailer weight. The weight listed on the VIN stamp says #1550 of cargo allowed. Meaning the trailer weight is #1950 leaving the factory. TB acknowledged after purchase that the trailer weight does not include any accessories including spare tire carrier, spare tire, additional weight of tires over stock, batteries, propane tank, propane, tent, roof rack, fridge, water and so on. TB believed that all these accessories should be acknowledged as cargo.

My TB trailer currently weighs #3900 plus with fluids topped off.

I’m mostly in agreement with Turtleback on that one. About the only thing that seems unfair would be spare tire carrier and spare tire: to me that should be included in the trailer weight since that’s how the trailer comes dry. But propane, RTT, weight with bigger tires, weight of full water tank, optional fridge, optional electrical components, that to me all belongs under cargo. That’s just my opinion, but a lot of that stuff are accessories that folks get to select later. My RTT I’ve selected is huge and heavy, but someone else may get a lighter one. I’m going stock tires too, but different wheels/tires impact weight optionally.

 

[OffroadCalling77]

Just noticed I did not address the weight of trailer issue. Once again many emails and phone conversations with TB to address trailer weight. The weight listed on the VIN stamp says #1550 of cargo allowed. Meaning the trailer weight is #1950 leaving the factory. TB acknowledged after purchase that the trailer weight does not include any accessories including spare tire carrier, spare tire, additional weight of tires over stock, batteries, propane tank, propane, tent, roof rack, fridge, water and so on. TB believed that all these accessories should be acknowledged as cargo.

My TB trailer currently weighs #3900 plus with fluids topped off.

Edit: looking for the weight of the getaway fully loaded, but it looks to be built lighter for Jeeps.

Given you have an expedition that weighs above the recommended Jeep tow weight. What are you going to do with the trailer? Modify it for use or sell it?

 

[entropy]

I’m mostly in agreement with Turtleback on that one. About the only thing that seems unfair would be spare tire carrier and spare tire: to me that should be included in the trailer weight since that’s how the trailer comes dry. But propane, RTT, weight with bigger tires, weight of full water tank, optional fridge, optional electrical components, that to me all belongs under cargo. That’s just my opinion, but a lot of that stuff are accessories that folks get to select later. My RTT I’ve selected is huge and heavy, but someone else may get a lighter one. I’m going stock tires too, but different wheels/tires impact weight optionally.

This is common. The hiker trailer I ordered does not include any of these on the dry weight. Usually trailer manufacturers use their basic model without options as dry weight.

My trailer is 1,000lbs dry. But I added 3 roof rack bars, spare tire and carrier, maxx fan, roadshower, 11lb propane tank mount and gas, maxx coupler, an extra side door, and I am probably forgetting something else. Hiker told me the weight of the trailer with the added options is 1,200lbs. The max towing capacity of my Jeep is on the contract and as I added options they would always confirm or advice against it due to weight. I can even put a RTT on top of it and sleep in the trailer or outside. Hiker is an awesome company to work with. Absurd lead times though.

Although I don't think TB did wrong by not including the options on the dry weight, I think they did wrong by not telling their customer of the increased weight given he was going to be towing with a Jeep. Those TB trailers are really heavy, and 40 gals of water is no joke either. These trailers are great for LONG off-grid expeditions, but if you'll have access to civilization every 3 days or so, and most people have access every day, I wouldn't suggest getting one.

 

[SuperNerdEE]

This is common. The hiker trailer I ordered does not include any of these on the dry weight. Usually trailer manufacturers use their basic model without options as dry weight.

My trailer is 1,000lbs dry. But I added 3 roof rack bars, spare tire and carrier, maxx fan, roadshower, 11lb propane tank mount and gas, maxx coupler, an extra side door, and I am probably forgetting something else. Hiker told me the weight of the trailer with the added options is 1,200lbs. The max towing capacity of my Jeep is on the contract and as I added options they would always confirm or advice against it due to weight. I can even put a RTT on top of it and sleep in the trailer or outside. Hiker is an awesome company to work with. Absurd lead times though.

Although I don't think TB did wrong by not including the options on the dry weight, I think they did wrong by not telling their customer of the increased weight given he was going to be towing with a Jeep. Those TB trailers are really heavy, and 40 gals of water is no joke either. These trailers are great for LONG off-grid expeditions, but if you'll have access to civilization every 3 days or so, and most people have access every day, I wouldn't suggest getting one.

Total weight was something I wondered about and discussed with TB given my options. It was actually one of my first inquiries given the dry weight. And a TB trailer might be overkill for me but I do plan on doing more overlanding. But I probably won't put 40 gallons of water in it unless I know I'll need that much. But for me all the amenities it offers for me make it worth it because its practically like a full on camper, just inside out. And that's what the wife and I want.

 

[entropy]

Total weight was something I wondered about and discussed with TB given my options. It was actually one of my first inquiries given the dry weight. And a TB trailer might be overkill for me but I do plan on doing more overlanding. But I probably won't put 40 gallons of water in it unless I know I'll need that much. But for me all the amenities it offers for me make it worth it because its practically like a full on camper, just inside out. And that's what the wife and I want.

But you can get "like a full camper inside out" for a lot less. And with more comforts.

 

[SuperNerdEE]

But you can get "like a full camper inside out" for a lot less. And with more comforts.

Got an example or two?

 

[entropy]

Got an example or two?

Hiker trailer extreme off road, colorado teardrops, socal teardrops. And a gazillion other squaredrops out there that would come with sink if that matters so much. You can have fans, heating,A/C, and you have roof rack storage. A little bit more money and you can get a Boreas. And if not looking to do anything more than dirt roads, there are even more options available.

Pressurized water tanks and/or water heaters shouldnt be much of a mess to add if needed. The small footprint of the TB style is best for serious offroad and long expeditions. It is a matter of preference I guess.

I am sure there are benefits though I am completely unaware, ignorant of. And I am sure some people just want to camp with their jeep but rather have a small trailer such as TB instead of building their Jeep's trunk. TB's don't seem overpriced, they just seem overkill to me, but I want to understand why people put their money on it. Because I've been looking at a lot of trailers lately and I am considering something like TB for long solo trips. The hiker is gonna be an offroad family rig.

 

[OffroadCalling77]

Hiker trailer extreme off road, colorado teardrops, socal teardrops. And a gazillion other squaredrops out there that would come with sink if that matters so much. You can have fans, heating,A/C, and you have roof rack storage. A little bit more money and you can get a Boreas. And if not looking to do anything more than dirt roads, there are even more options available.

Pressurized water tanks and/or water heaters shouldnt be much of a mess to add if needed. The small footprint of the TB style is best for serious offroad and long expeditions. It is a matter of preference I guess.

I am sure there are benefits though I am completely unaware, ignorant of. And I am sure some people just want to camp with their jeep but rather have a small trailer such as TB instead of building their Jeep's trunk. TB's don't seem overpriced, they just seem overkill to me, but I want to understand why people put their money on it. Because I've been looking at a lot of trailers lately and I am considering something like TB for long solo trips. The hiker is gonna be an offroad family rig.

See I went with the TB Getaway which is smaller and lighter than the expedition. It actually says on their website it was built for small SUVs and Jeeps! Cheaper too. I think out the door I’m like 28-29K versus around 45K for the expedition.

Me and SuperNerd have been chatting and I know he also has a family like you, so the Getaway was too small for his needs. He’s looking for the same experience I am. Outdoor camping as much as possible with a trailer that has the most off road capabilities you can tow. Whether you use them or not, that rubicon badge will be tempting you to raise your skill level to find out what it can handle.

Its just my wife and I with no plans for children. The getaway was perfect. I looked at the Meaner Bean and it was pushing over 35K before taxes. I really considered it but it still doesn’t handle as well off road as the TB Getaway with Icon suspension + I like sleeping in a RTT.

As I mentioned, long-term I think I would like to own multiple options including an off-road trailer I could stand in, but this will be my first purchase that I’ll probably never sell.

Its perfect for solo trips or going up to bishop and fishing with my buddy. Hopefully someday, if business continues going well, it will be one option in an arsenal of camping choices at my disposal.

 

[NCJL]

Edit: looking for the weight of the getaway fully loaded, but it looks to be built lighter for Jeeps.

Given you have an expedition that weighs above the recommended Jeep tow weight. What are you going to do with the trailer? Modify it for use or sell it?

I have already modified the trailer. The Timbren 3500HD suspension that I installed is ok for the #3500 pounds on the axle with #400 on the tongue. Keeping the trailer. I’m over 40k into this trailer. The JLURD pulls the weight without issue.

TB told me the dry weight of the trailer before picking up would be #2000 or less with the accessories they were installing. This was clarified through phone conversations. The only unknown was the weight of my FridgeFreeze. They were including the weight of their commonly installed fridge. TB after pick up of the trailer up the dry weight # to about #2300. I’m thinking more like #2400. Remember, the sticker on the trailer says #1950.

The bottom line is these trailers are heavy. Clarify everything in writing before purchase.

After the 2000 miles of back and forth between home and TB to get a suspension installed that did not rub the frame I took the the trailer to a local BigTex dealer. This was done to address the handling of the trailer. I was directed to a local metal fabricator. This shop estimated 40 hours of shop labor to remove the suspension and add structural members to the frame. The frame did not have any cross members from side to side other than the front and rear. No cross member in the axle area. The frame did have slats on top for mounting the box too.

Long story short. Due to COVID I had extra time. I worked with Timbren, the metal shop and mobile welder. I spent about 6k out of pocket to address electrical, suspension, tire carrier and water issues. Approximately 100 hours labor of my time.

Talk to people who own the trailer.

Anyone in the Bay Area is welcome to visit and inspect my trailer to allow you to make an informed decision. Just PM me.

 

[OffroadCalling77]

I have already modified the trailer. The Timbren 3500HD suspension that I installed is ok for the #3500 pounds on the axle with #400 on the tongue. Keeping the trailer. I’m over 40k into this trailer. The JLURD pulls the weight without issue.

TB told me the dry weight of the trailer before picking up would be #2000 or less with the accessories they were installing. This was clarified through phone conversations. The only unknown was the weight of my FridgeFreeze. They were including the weight of their commonly installed fridge. TB after pick up of the trailer up the dry weight # to about #2300. I’m thinking more like #2400. Remember, the sticker on the trailer says #1950.

The bottom line is these trailers are heavy. Clarify everything in writing before purchase.

After the 2000 miles of back and forth between home and TB to get a suspension installed that did not rub the frame I took the the trailer to a local BigTex dealer. This was done to address the handling of the trailer. I was directed to a local metal fabricator. This shop estimated 40 hours of shop labor to remove the suspension and add structural members to the frame. The frame did not have any cross members from side to side other than the front and rear. No cross member in the axle area. The frame did have slats on top for mounting the box too.

Long story short. Due to COVID I had extra time. I worked with Timbren, the metal shop and mobile welder. I spent about 6k out of pocket to address electrical, suspension, tire carrier and water issues. Approximately 100 hours labor of my time.

Talk to people who own the trailer.

Anyone in the Bay Area is welcome to visit and inspect my trailer to allow you to make an informed decision. Just PM me.

Thanks for your input. Like I said, I went with a Getaway, which is substantially lighter than the expedition. I’m hoping for a positive outcome.

 

[SuperNerdEE]

I just wanted to take a moment to post about the electrical issues. NCJL mentioned that all things were tied to the trailers chassis and that this is somehow wrong. I want to put my two cents in here.

It is common for power return (negative, neutral, whatever you want to call it) to be tied to chassis. Cars do this, trailers do this, and even airplanes do this. How do I know airplanes do it? I'm an electrical engineer in aerospace who works primarily in power electronics design and I design the electronic circuits that make up components akin to what is in this trailer. I've worked on fighter jets like JSF, big commercial aircraft like Boeing 777X, 737, 787, Gulfstream & Bombardier business jets, and recently the C-130J. Point being that tying all negative terminals to chassis is fine. Not only is it fine its standard practice.

So what special consideration do you need for a trailer like this? One thing you need to be careful with in this situation is the negative for the battery itself, which is the current return path. Why? It's for the battery monitor to properly function. The battery monitor works by monitoring current flow return back into the battery, so the shunt (a resistor) MUST be in series with it's connection to the chassis. This shunt is used to develop a voltage when current flows into the battery, and then that resultant voltage is monitored by the battery monitor. Classic ohms law stuff here: the resistance of the shunt is known (shunt is supplied by the battery monitor MFG) and the voltage developed across it is linearly related to the current through it. The monitor "knows" this relationship and uses it to determine the current at any given time and then accumulates the total current over time to record battery usage in amp-hours (Ah).

As long as this shunt is in series with the battery and the other side of it connected to the chassis, all the battery's loads (the electronics the battery powers) can be tied directly to the chassis. I have attached a crude diagram showing the equivalence using wires directly to loads or all things tied to the trailers chassis.

What about other sources that may exist besides the battery? Doesn't matter, at least not from the battery monitors perspective. Current must flow in a loop, meaning all current sourced by the batteries positive terminal must return to its negative. Will other sources muck this up? Nope. That's thanks to kirchhoff's current law: if there are other voltage sources in the trailer, their currents will not flow into the batteries negative terminal but they will flow back into whatever negative they have. That's current loops, folks.

So everything can be tied to the chassis. BUT, if your battery negative is tied to the chassis, then yes, you have a problem and the battery monitor won't work. That shunt has to be there.

I can't speak to the problems that NCJL had. I haven't seen his wiring issues. Certainly to light of a gauge wire will cause problems with the inverter, and if the shunt was bypassed or not installed then the monitor would fail to function. I've actually asked to see all of TB's wiring schematics and they've even sent me pictures of the electrical build and a diagram. All of it looks fine to me, including wire gauge.

I'm not saying this to discredit NCJL or state he didn't have issues or a bad build because someone did it poorly or used the wrong gauge or miswired the shunt. That's not for me to decide since I have no data. But I do want to drive the point drive home that the generic statement that NCJL made is misleading, if not incorrect entirely: "The wiring on the trailer that we bought was done in a manner similar to any utility type trailer, the frame is the negative. The return path/negative with a battery monitoring system must be done with wiring and separated from the tow vehicle."

 

[OffroadCalling77]

Well said.

Most of that went over my head, but the point you're driving home makes sense to me. At the end of the day, there are only a few players making quality off-road trailers without a sleeping galley and I believe TB is one of those companies.

I am sure they've made mistakes and will make more as human error is only natural. I am more concerned with how they improved on those mistakes over time and rectified past mistakes for current customers.

I know we are getting our trailers the first or second week of September. Hopefully we can provide detailed reviews, both initially and after some time of ownership. You having an Expedition Series and I purchased a Getaway Series. This should give an accurate account of our own opinions on the overall build quality.

I am really looking forward to getting it.

 

[entropy]

I am plugging a jackery to my trailer to a 12V connection and charging it with solar panels. Keeping power consumption to a minumum. Light and no fuss. All I am powering is a fan and lights anyway.

 

[SuperNerdEE]

Well said.

Most of that went over my head, but the point you're driving home makes sense to me. At the end of the day, there are only a few players making quality off-road trailers without a sleeping galley and I believe TB is one of those companies.

I am sure they've made mistakes and will make more as human error is only natural. I am more concerned with how they improved on those mistakes over time and rectified past mistakes for current customers.

I know we are getting our trailers the first or second week of September. Hopefully we can provide detailed reviews, both initially and after some time of ownership. You having an Expedition Series and I purchased a Getaway Series. This should give an accurate account of our own opinions on the overall build quality.

I am really looking forward to getting it.

I will be giving a fully detailed review of my first impressions and will follow up later after usage.

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