Sunrider position pointless?

[JeepCares]

Can you speak to the discrepancy about this with the sticker quoted earlier that has a red X through running sun-rider without quarter panel windows, and the same contrary information printed in the 2019 user guide, also posted?

Hi Dogboyslim,
The sticker mentioned earlier in this thread was added to warn owners about standing in the backseat and attempting to force the top from sunrider to downstack position. We recommend referring to your Owner's Manual to review the correct procedure. You may also watch the following video about lowing the soft top: .
Lydia
Jeep Social Care Specialist

Sponsored

 

[Firemadz]

Joe. You like double negatives. I don't know why, they only make things less clear.

Here are the facts. They are supported by a wide consensus of people on this thread, @JeepCares , and any basic read of the 2018 manual (which I've read), and the 2019 manual as told to me by long standing forum members whose opinions (e.g. @Jebiruph) I highly regard.

Maybe this is what you are saying and I'm getting lost in your obfuscation, deliberate or not, but, here goes:

Before putting your soft top in Sunrider position, FCA unequivocally and expressly requires, as per their de-facto source, the owner's manual, that soft windows be removed first. Page 114 of the 2018 manual, which deals with Sunrider positioning, reads "after removing the rear window and quarter panel windows....."

You are welcome to argue the logic behind this. I don't follow it myself. But any claim you may be making that this procedure is not indicated is wrong, even if you can find FCA supplemental literature that says otherwise (it was introduced in this thread,) and even if this supplemental literature fails to have language (and it probably does) akin to "refer to the owner's manual for further details."

I wish, if your claim in fact is that the soft windows need not be removed before putting the soft top in Sunrider position, that you were right.

I did not use any double negatives. JeepCares is not a trustworthy source, and their materials contradict themselves at worst, at best are unclear. You do NOT have to remove the rear windows.

 

[Firemadz]

Hi Dogboyslim,
The sticker mentioned earlier in this thread was added to warn owners about standing in the backseat and attempting to force the top from sunrider to downstack position. We recommend referring to your Owner's Manual to review the correct procedure. You may also watch the following video about lowing the soft top: .
Lydia
Jeep Social Care Specialist

As per the enclosed card provided with the soft top. The other materials are incorrect.

 

[Rahneld]

I did not use any double negatives.

• This thread is an academic discussion. The OP gets it as do I and most. He, I, and others expressly admit to not religiously following this FCA protocol--but it is just that. The official line from FCA is that removing the 3 soft windows before opening the soft top to any position: Sunrider or completely open is necessary; the latter also being physically necessary of course.
• This is an example of a double negative sentence. "I am not, not going to Bob's party." I'm not the grammatical police: if anything I'm a habitual offender. But given how the spoken word is so easily misunderstood, here and elsewhere, it's just easier to rewrite the above as "I'm going to Bob's party." You're claim that you don't do this...https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/sunrider-position-pointless.30957/page-10#post-716792
  
  "the manual does NOT explicitly say to not drive in sunrider with rear windows installed."
  
  makes me wonder if you're trolling or I don't know what. This sentence means, "the manual does explicity say to drive in sunrider with rear windows installed."
  
  It does not say this. Not the owner's manual at least, which trumps other FCA documentation that might contradict this manual, be it the user's manual or the supplement you showed us. We've been down this road higher in the post with Mr. @Macchiato with this supplement, which I've fully conceded expressly indicates that keeping the soft windows on with Sunrider mode is in not merely okay, but indicated.
  
  Be it the user's manual or such glove box inserts, they tend to have language that defers you to the owners manual precisely in case someone at FCA accidently makes contradictory statements.
  
  Examples: "refer to the Owner's Manual for further details,"
  
  "This User Guide is not a replacement for the full Owner’s Manual, and does not fully cover every operation and procedure possible with your vehicle."
  
  You're right, the [owners] manual doesn't explicity say to NOT drive in sunrider with rear windows installed because it doesn't need to. It details the necessity of removing these windows. To put your claim in writing in the same manual would be an inter-manual contradiction.
• You may be confusing practical use of the JL, and the admitted unlikely event that riding with soft windows on in Sunrider postion, something that practically everyone one of us does, including me, with the academic argument: "what is the de factor line from FCA on this." You've said, "it is NOT correct procedure nor explicitly stated." This is wrong.
• I suspect these rules are written this way for liability, whether warranty, or traffic accident windows flying induced.
• These posters are people who have as a group in this thread mostly entirely and expressly endorsed this: some doing so only in part. @Jebiruph , @cjaama , @mwilk012 , @JeepCares , @Jeeper Fever , @Tumbleweed , and @robaw -- and probably like me have all also done Sunrider position with soft windows intact.

 

[Firemadz]

• This thread is an academic discussion. The OP gets it as do I and most. He, I, and others expressly admit to not religiously following this FCA protocol--but it is just that. The official line from FCA is that removing the 3 soft windows before opening the soft top to any position: Sunrider or completely open is necessary; the latter also being physically necessary of course.
• This is an example of a double negative sentence. "I am not, not going to Bob's party." I'm not the grammatical police: if anything I'm a habitual offender. But given how the spoken word is so easily misunderstood, here and elsewhere, it's just easier to rewrite the above as "I'm going to Bob's party." You're claim that you don't do this...https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/sunrider-position-pointless.30957/page-10#post-716792
  
  "the manual does NOT explicitly say to not drive in sunrider with rear windows installed."
  
  makes me wonder if you're trolling or I don't know what. This sentence means, "the manual does explicity say to drive in sunrider with rear windows installed."
  
  It does not say this. Not the owner's manual at least, which trumps other FCA documentation that might contradict this manual, be it the user's manual or the supplement you showed us. We've been down this road higher in the post with Mr. @Macchiato with this supplement, which I've fully conceded expressly indicates that keeping the soft windows on with Sunrider mode is in not merely okay, but indicated.
  
  Be it the user's manual or such glove box inserts, they tend to have language that defers you to the owners manual precisely in case someone at FCA accidently makes contradictory statements.
  
  Examples: "refer to the Owner's Manual for further details,"
  
  "This User Guide is not a replacement for the full Owner’s Manual, and does not fully cover every operation and procedure possible with your vehicle."
  
  You're right, the [owners] manual doesn't explicity say to NOT drive in sunrider with rear windows installed because it doesn't need to. It details the necessity of removing these windows. To put your claim in writing in the same manual would be an inter-manual contradiction.
• You may be confusing practical use of the JL, and the admitted unlikely event that riding with soft windows on in Sunrider postion, something that practically everyone one of us does, including me, with the academic argument: "what is the de factor line from FCA on this." You've said, "it is NOT correct procedure nor explicitly stated." This is wrong.
• I suspect these rules are written this way for liability, whether warranty, or traffic accident windows flying induced.
• Those posters are people how have as a group in this thread mostly entirely and expressly endorsed this: some doing so only in part. @Jebiruph , @cjaama , @milk012 , @Jeep cares , @Jeeper Fever Fever , [USER=35520]@Tumbleweed , and @robaw -- and probably like me have all also done Sunrider position with soft windows intact.
  [/USER]

Once again, re-read the sentence, I did not use a double negative. Not sure why you keep insisting that the owners manual is the end all, be all, because it’s not. It’s a document subject to errors, just lie anything else. If they actually, explicitly intended the Jeep to be driven in sunrider with rear windows removed, it would be in bold type, with a warning or caution label, like everything else in the manual. This is simply a poorly written manual, that actually runs two different instructional processes together. The FCA published card enclosed with the Jeep is no less authoritative, and it explicitly addresses the fact that you don’t need to remove the rear windows. The official Mopar video does not address sunrider, but lowering the top completely. Conversely, they did release a JK video addressing sunrider position, and it clearly shows rear windows in place. Every dealer-released video I could find tonight on the soft top shows sunrider position with windows in place, as does some of Jeep’s own marketing pics on the website. All of this clearly points to the fact that this is a case of a murky owners manual. It astounds me that not everyone can understand this, but whatever. Drive your Jeep however you want, I’ll do it correctly, as do most of the Jeepers around.

 

[Rahneld]

Once again, re-read the sentence, I did not use a double negative.

I don't know why I allow myself to be sucked in...

A sentence using, essentially, the word "no" (or some variation of the negative) at least twice subjects itself to cancellation of pairs of "no" words with no loss of meaning. Take a class in logic need be. This is what you did, and its not important unless you were deliberately trying to confuse the matter.

Not sure why you keep insisting that the owners manual is the end all, be all, because it’s not.

I insist that the owner's manual is the de facto standard, the end all be all as you put it because pretty much all other manuals have you defer to it, while it defers to no others (accept maybe as it regards repair, not owner operation.) Case law in liability cases have demonstrated the need for auto manufacturers to not only include this "refer to" language based on possible contradictory statements in documentation, based of days past where awards were given to plaintiffs, but after inserting this language, being protected by it in cases of dispute" allowing the owner's manual (not the supplement or anything else) to be the de factor standard.

It’s a document subject to errors, just lie anything else.

​

That's as true as it is irrelevant. The manual is clear on Sunrider position usage, our subject. If the subject matter was murky in the manual, I could see it excluded, rationally or legally, but it's just not here. That some irrelevant sections of the manual to the argument *may* be poorly written wouldn't permit us, practically or legally to "throw out the baby with the bath water," but simply exclude bad sections. Maybe if the entire manual was inaccurate...….​

If they actually, explicitly intended the Jeep to be driven in sunrider with rear windows removed, it would be in bold type, with a warning or caution label, like everything else in the manual.

You're opinion here would in a court of law go something like this:

"Sir, (you on the witness stand) under the section of the manual that reads Lowering the Soft Top Into Sunrider Position, would you please read for me the first instruction."

You'd take the book and read, fast at first, and then slowly, its words, which read, "After removing the rear window and quarter panel windows, move to the front of the vehicle."

This is simply a poorly written manual, that actually runs two different instructional processes together.

Ok, that argument goes something like this in rebuttal: "your honor, the two processes are Lowering the Hard Top and Lowering the Soft Top Into Sunrider Position. They aren't different, in fact they're integrally linked. The first section details how to do it, the second reminds you to do this first section before putting the top in Sunrider position, as we already had our plantiff read out loud to the court."

The FCA published card enclosed with the Jeep is no less authoritative, and it explicitly addresses the fact that you don’t need to remove the rear windows.

The FCA card enclosed with the JL is less authoritative. Why? Here's a better picture of my point, even if it's sideways, from higher up in the thread. https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/sunrider-position-pointless.30957/page-3#post-715423
Do you see the legal language about referring to the owner's manual for compete details?

It's not as if the owner's manual refers to the user's manual or your card. As stated prior, it may refer to the service manual for repair, but not other manuals for vehicle operation.

That's why, legally or arugmentatively and academically speaking, at least.

The official Mopar video does not address sunrider, but lowering the top completely.

...and therefore can't be used to justify either of our positions.

Conversely, they did release a JK video addressing sunrider position, and it clearly shows rear windows in place.

If your going to argue academics here, the owner's manual is the de facto standard and a JK isn't a JL. Did the video show the JK in motion? If not, see below.

Every dealer-released video I could find tonight on the soft top shows sunrider position with windows in place, as does some of Jeep’s own marketing pics on the website.

Litigate the dealer in this hypothetical. Maybe it might yield an award. As for the picture of the Jeep you included prior with just the Sunrider open, assuming it was FCA published, it would be addressed two ways. Legal council for FCA would again say, and likely win, that the owner's manual is the de-facto standard, and second, that this JL was motionless, perhaps the owner just about to close the top before becoming mobile. Pictures you may have seen with the JL mobile would use the manual as the de facto defense and/or where applicable "closed course pictures of the JL" defense.

All of this clearly points to the fact that this is a case of a murky owners manual.

...not on Sunrider operation is isn't. And that's what's relevant here.

It astounds me that not everyone can understand this, but whatever.

Have you considered that you might have it wrong? We all make mistakes, myself included at times. I did so at the beginning of this thread, misreading the OP's question.

Drive your Jeep however you want, I’ll do it correctly, as do most of the Jeepers around.

​

If you define correctly as with the soft windows on in Sunrider mode, while we all do it, and likely nothing will happen, you're just wrong.....not "my opinion" wrong, but FCA's official documentation and held up in court "wrong."

If the fit hits the shan, and it likely won't, none of us have warranty or bodily/property liability claims with mother FCA over this.

Can we stop?

 

[cjaama]

A sentence using, essentially, the word "no" (or some variation of the negative) at least twice subjects itself to cancellation of pairs of "no" words with no loss of meaning. Take a class in logic need be. This is what you did, and its not important unless you were deliberately trying to confuse the matter.

​

I’ve always known double negatives to mean using two negatives in a sentence, which ultimately causes the statement to mean the opposite of what the person intends, such as “I ain’t going to no party if she's gonna be there” or :

...not on Sunrider operation it isn't. ​

The intended meaning of his statement remains true. He’s not saying the manual tells you to leave the windows in. An alternative way of saying that would be, “they never explicitly tell you to remove them”.

The JK Owner’s Manual seems to have eliminated any confusion. There is a section instructing how to fully lower the soft top, followed by a section on putting it into sunrider position, rather than the way they chose to do ours where it allows interpretation (although it seems to me that they’re telling you to remove the windows in the manual).

Instructions start on page 143
https://cdn.dealereprocess.net/cdn/servicemanuals/jeep/2017-wrangler.pdf​

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

Once again, re-read the sentence, I did not use a double negative. Not sure why you keep insisting that the owners manual is the end all, be all, because it’s not. It’s a document subject to errors, just lie anything else. If they actually, explicitly intended the Jeep to be driven in sunrider with rear windows removed, it would be in bold type, with a warning or caution label, like everything else in the manual. This is simply a poorly written manual, that actually runs two different instructional processes together. The FCA published card enclosed with the Jeep is no less authoritative, and it explicitly addresses the fact that you don’t need to remove the rear windows. The official Mopar video does not address sunrider, but lowering the top completely. Conversely, they did release a JK video addressing sunrider position, and it clearly shows rear windows in place. Every dealer-released video I could find tonight on the soft top shows sunrider position with windows in place, as does some of Jeep’s own marketing pics on the website. All of this clearly points to the fact that this is a case of a murky owners manual. It astounds me that not everyone can understand this, but whatever. Drive your Jeep however you want, I’ll do it correctly, as do most of the Jeepers around.

I bet Ron is a hoot at parties.

I can’t keep away from this thread because it’s goddamn entertaining. Like a forum version of Joseph Heller’s Catch 22

 

[TaxPhan]

I bet Ron is a hoot at parties.

I can’t keep away from this thread because it’s goddamn entertaining. Like a forum version of Joseph Heller’s Catch 22

Yes! I don't know why I keep coming back to read it. It's like driving by an accident and you just can't look away.

 

[TaxPhan]

By the way, I use the sunrider position all the time with the windows out and enjoy every minute of it. I sometimes leave it that way because it's less confusing for my wife to close the top in a pinch. She rarely drives it, so I let her do what she wants. Plus, if you have anything you are carrying in the back, it gives you plenty of room.

 

[Rahneld]

Chris...as said, I'm no grammar coach; violator is more like it. That said, some double negatives, like carbs, are easier digested than others.

my "not on a Sunrider it isn't." is easier to process. We all know it means "it does not apply to the Sunrider."

Two negatives in a sentence (I can't believe I'm having this discussion on a JL Wrangler board) simply cancel themselves out and make the reader wonder what the author was really trying to convey.

"I'm not, not going to Bob's party because he's a lousy cook."

So, are you going, are not going to the party but for some reason unrelated to his culinary skills, etc.

I disagree with you that @Firemadz is trying to say that the manual doesn't tell you to leave the windows in. I believe he is saying that the manual does telling you to leave them in. And you know what, he's right, it does. The real issue is what "manual." The owner's manual, the de facto standard, expressly indicates their removal prior to moving the JL in Sunrider position. But the glove compartment insert (that "manual") that some owners got, expressly says that the soft windows can be left in when putting the soft top into Sunrider position.

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/sunrider-position-pointless.30957/page-3#post-715423

The issue though is that the owner's manual trumps this glove box card if for no other reason than the verbiage also contained on that card about referring to the owner's manual for complete details, and the absence of such verbiage in the owner's manual, barring maybe references to the service manual on mechanical (not user operational) aspects of the JL.

The JK manual is irrelevant here, and any implications you may be inferring that the JL manual is unclear on the subject of proper Sunrider position procedure is patently false.

There is no confusion. The JL manual, as you say, doesn't "seem" to be telling you to remove the soft windows: it clearly and expressly says for you to remove these windows.

See the prior post where I mock trial have @Firemadz read from the manual.

Look, Chris...this stuff...all academic. You, I, and the rest of the world ride with our soft windows on and the JL soft top in Sunrider position from, at least, time to time. I'd be the first one to agree that any person who so pedantically adheres to the manual is probably the same nut who goes around the community making sure all the "valves on fire hydrants in the community that are as dry as a bone, are fully tightened, because their head is not," if you catch my drift.

The issue is more about legal rights as it relates to warranty and liability. In this case, soft windows damaged while on in Sunrider mode--not that I think this will happen--FCA won't cover nor will any court make them do so. And windows that fall off in such a scenario, again I envision highly unlikely especially if properly installed, and cause accidents and/or bodily harm, will be law suits in which FCA will likely be named, but the courts will enforce FCA's petition to be dropped from.

Happy trails dude. Lets both go ride in Sunrider mode and leave this discussion, like the setting sun, to drop below the horizon. As I said prior, your initial question of why stop at Sunrider mode is you've got to remove the soft windows anyway remains patently legitimate for you to have asked as academic exercise in logic and reasoning. : - )

 

[Snayte]

I just wish you could run with the rear windows unzipped like I did in my JK.

I really do miss the zippers

 

[Drumr04]

Wow quite the back and forth. Count me as another one who uses the sunrider position with all windows attached up to 70-75mph with no issues. I've only been running the windows in when they're calling for extended periods of heavy rain though. Other than that it's windows out either in safari mode or all the way down.

 

[OldGuyNewJeep]

I’m waiting to see a JL on the road in sunrider with the windows out so I can point and yell:

 

[digitalbliss]

I don't know why I allow myself to be sucked in...

A sentence using, essentially, the word "no" (or some variation of the negative) at least twice subjects itself to cancellation of pairs of "no" words with no loss of meaning. Take a class in logic need be. This is what you did, and its not important unless you were deliberately trying to confuse the matter.

......

Can we stop?

The better question is can you? Geeze dude. What in the AF are you trying to prove?

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