GOODBYE EcoDiesel; HELLO FUEL EFFICIENCY!!!

[DewHawk]

I mean you can get DEF at some pumps way way cheaper than the box

No doubt, I was just trying to give a real worst case scenario to give the 4xe a chance. Even out of the box, the cost of DEF added in isn't really what I would even remotely call a negative against the Diesel. If they really want to try and bang us up on cost of ownership, they need to look at dealer servicing visits for fuel filters and oil changes. That's where we take a big hit. Thing is, most if not the majority of EcoDiesel owners have figured out how to avoid the stealership servicing penalty box to bring that cost in line with the rest of the JL powertrains...sans the 4xe.
It's gonna be wild to see how much those hybrid components and servicing costs are gonna impact cost of ownership in a couple years. I imagine some of the real diehards have probably burned through more than half of their mileage warranties already. There's no way to be cost effective fixing those items under the hood/frame/seat yourself or through an independent shop. Not yet anyway.

Sponsored

 

[JLeco2022]

No doubt, I was just trying to give a real worst case scenario to give the 4xe a chance. Even out of the box, the cost of DEF added in isn't really what I would even remotely call a negative against the Diesel. If they really want to try and bang us up on cost of ownership, they need to look at dealer servicing visits for fuel filters and oil changes. That's where we take a big hit. Thing is, most if not the majority of EcoDiesel owners have figured out how to avoid the stealership servicing penalty box to bring that cost in line with the rest of the JL powertrains...sans the 4xe.
It's gonna be wild to see how much those hybrid components and servicing costs are gonna impact cost of ownership in a couple years. I imagine some of the real diehards have probably burned through more than half of their mileage warranties already. There's no way to be cost effective fixing those items under the hood/frame/seat yourself or through an independent shop. Not yet anyway.

i would agree

 

[Deleted User 38384]

Small correction; Miles Per Gallon Equivalent. Sorry, just wanna make sure we keep the facts straight so the 4xe guys don't get twisted up over correcting us.

Something else to consider as well:

This is the actual captured data from my old window sticker on the 4xe. 4xe owners will obviously recognize this but we need to clarify some things here. First, take a look at that 49MPGe number and the bar graph below. An estimated 68KW-hrs per 100 miles. You can look up your local electricity rates and do the math based on time of day (most electric companies these days charge different rates based on time of day/demand). Mine was around $0.18 on average so that 100 miles estimate comes in right around $12.24. Not great, not terrible; puts me right at 12 cents a mile based on that data set. Then we come to the bar graph. 22 miles of all electric range on average with 370 miles of estimated gas only range (yes, I know the hybrid system still works despite showing 0 range on the battery, I used to be one of you so I know how it works). Tresdert's numbers are giving you the benefit of some extra mpg to extend that a bit more beyond the quoted 20mpg above.

So, throw that $12.24 for 100 miles in with the cost of mid grade at $2.57 locally for me over the same distance and we're talking $12.85 for 100 miles of gas. So I'm saving 61 cents over the course of 100 miles with electricity compared to gas based on that data.

Now, lets look at the diesel to keep things sane around here:

Again, this is the sheet from my diesel's window sticker. Straight away you'll see the difference in fuel use is nearly a full gallon at .7 per 100 miles, but we'll do the math anyway. Since I've already demonstrated that factoring DEF cost into the cost per mile is useless, we're gonna just say it's an extra penny to make everyone happy.

So, at $2.99 a gallon for diesel in my area we're looking at roughly $12.87 (it's $12.857 without the DEF tax or rounding up for those that care) for 100 miles based on this data set. Something that continues to be proven time and time again with these range estimates for the diesel however is their inaccuracy. 23mpg combined is something more likely to be done with 37's instead of the factory 33's whereas a 4xe with the same 37’s will struggle to maintain north of 17-18mpg. But again, fair is fair here so I'm not gonna argue it or dive into that. However, throwing that extra penny in for DEF didn't really make a hill of beans difference compared to mid grade with the 4xe, did it?

What did we learn here? At the end of the day it all comes down to range. Something the diesel has in abundance over the 4xe once the 4xe gets beyond the plug. Saving 60 cents every 100 miles over the course of 10000 miles isn't some mythical cost savings in my book compared to gas or diesel. Those annual fuel cost numbers that the EPA/DOT cite are pure fiction in the real world. It's how they can market their preferred methods of travel to the average consumer. I really started to notice this when I bought my first Hellcat Charger. I paid close attention to those estimated numbers and compared them to my actual averages. I was BEATING their estimates by 3-4 mpg combined on a regular basis with a big loud premium guzzling supercharged V8 sedan, and that was driving with a mix of tire smoking stupidity and conservative cruising. I’m sure there’s plenty of 4xe owners that will probably have more reliable fuel data to pull from that smokes the epa estimates, but I still haven’t seen that in abundance posted anywhere. Especially an apples to apples Rubicon vs Rubicon on stock KO2’s which is what I tried to pull together here for the sake of giving the 4xe a fair chance.

If you choose to use premium fuel in the 4xe the cost disparity only gets worse in my area. I feel the premium penalty is worth it to maintain optimum efficiency from the 2.0L Turbo. Trust me and reread your owners manual; 91 octane gas might not look like it's making a meaningful difference in your fuel economy but your engine and fuel system is gonna thank you in the long run if you just suck it up and don't choose to burn the cheaper mid grade all the time (For those that care, that figure jumps to $13.40 per 100 miles factoring premium costs locally).

If you’re the type of person that can squeeze the 4xe’s battery every year for optimum efficiency and really add that fuel savings up along with your tax incentives to make up that initial cost to own, good on you. If you drive highway miles beyond the battery range on a regular basis, it really does become a matter of justifying it for the extra power available. That was my primary justification and at the time it made perfect sense. Having an EcoDiesel now though, I’d like to go back and kick my own ass 2 years ago with today’s knowledge.

Damn guy, that was a really well rounded and thought-provoking/thought induced packet of information.

Appreciate you taking the time to put that together. It's extremely beneficial with your knowledge having had both vehicles. I never would have figured out that sort of a cost side of it myself.

Yeah I was just taking a stab at what that e might stand for. Changed it in my post so that them 4XE guys don't come out and latch onto that one thing, being the only thing they can actually argue correctly.

Seriously though, that was a good read! ???

 

[Flip]

I'm still waiting for you to produce your real numbers...

And that kids, is how you defeat a 4XE owner.

They always start off with their bullshit misleading numbers, and when that doesn't get them the response they're looking for, they start throwing out cost numbers and going on the attack, all the while never producing the one thing which will defeat them, the truth!!

 

[TheNewGuy]

I saw a debate on this exact subject last night on WGAS

 

[SargeDiesel]

@SargeDiesel ? I want to know the Sarge Green Diesel inside joke and secret hand shake. Now, I feel left out.

Awww nobody gets left out in our Jeep family.... it was not so much of a joke as it was an awakening... lol
@Tredsdert figured out my JT's pet name.
Which is just basically a combination of my military service and the color of my JT... ha ha... not very funny... kinda boring... but NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY...

 

[DewHawk]

Damn guy, that was a really well rounded and thought-provoking/thought induced packet of information.

Appreciate you taking the time to put that together. It's extremely beneficial with your knowledge having had both vehicles. I never would have figured out that sort of a cost side of it myself.

Yeah I was just taking a stab at what that e might stand for. Changed it in my post so that them 4XE guys don't come out and latch onto that one thing, being the only thing they can actually argue correctly.

Seriously though, that was a good read! ???

No worries brother.

The real $hit sandwich everyone has to see here though regardless of what powertrain you own is how Jeep managed to screw up marketing the 4xe like it should have been on day 1. I touched on this in the class action lawsuit thread with BXFX and he brought up a good point. By using the whole '49MPGe', '21 miles of all electric range', '400 mile driving range' and '370hp/470tq combined output' figures at auto shows/product unveils to get customers in showrooms, they essentially hid what was truly great about the 4xe and what most found out the hard way (myself included here).

There's TONS caveats to those quoted figures. In almost every metric Jeep used to market the 4xe, they put tiny little asterisks in that the average consumer didn't bother to read in detail or research. It's deceptive marketing. If they had focused on things like the benefits of how you can use the battery in every day situations to avoid the pump for weeks on end, while showing it's true fuel economy once that battery was reduced to its 15% constant reserve capacity, I think more consumers would have appreciated it and less of this arguing on why it's something it isn't would be happening.

Obviously the teething issues of the new tech has really been a nightmare for some owners, but that's with any new vehicle these days (looking at you Ford and GM). I think given time, the 4xe will make more sense as they continue to work out the kinks and improve it's functionality. It honestly just needed more time to bake before they pushed it out.

I still maintain, however, I would go back to when I ordered my first 4xe and kick my own ass. Would've saved me a lot of headaches in the long run and I'd probably have a Gecko EcoDiesel on Dana 60's by now.

 

[JPAloha]

I've heard of some people getting the 4xe driver side cowl to use as an onboard air port.

Bro..... THAT'S GENIUS!!!!

Best conversation starter of the whole build, lol

 

[Deleted User 38384]

I mean you can get DEF at some pumps way way cheaper than the box

That's a fact.

At buc-ee's in Melissa Texas, they sell it for $3.50 (varies but that's the average).

You figure you're getting $17, sometimes even $20 for 2 &1/2 gallons of DEF from those boxes, well I can get a whole tank (5 gallons) for the same price from Buc-ee's.

 

[Deleted User 38384]

Best conversation starter of the whole build, lol

AND IT'S A TWO-DOOR!!!

 

[Ratbert]

That's a fact.

At buc-ee's in Melissa Texas, they sell it for $3.50 (varies but that's the average).

You figure you're getting $17, sometimes even $20 for 2 &1/2 gallons of DEF from those boxes, well I can get a whole tank (5 gallons) for the same price from Buc-ee's.

And you don't have to deal with the damn box with its awkward tubing.

 

[JLeco2022]

That's a fact.

At buc-ee's in Melissa Texas, they sell it for $3.50 (varies but that's the average).

You figure you're getting $17, sometimes even $20 for 2 &1/2 gallons of DEF from those boxes, well I can get a whole tank (5 gallons) for the same price from Buc-ee's.

i live in a 3rd world country so the boxes of def are like 6 ez payments of 19.95, so i go out of my way to hit truck stops for def

 

[Deleted User 38384]

i live in a 3rd world country so the boxes of def are like 6 ez payments of 19.95, so i go out of my way to hit truck stops for def

You know, there's always room for another diesel in Texas!!

 

[JLeco2022]

You know, there's always room for another diesel in Texas!!

Kinda wanna watch this shit show hit rock bottom, someone has to be here to rebuild

 

[Redcanyon77]

@Tredsdert

Not quite as good as your 5000+ mpg, but perhaps some day.

Now let’s see that power bill!!!

Sponsored